Route Cleaning with Javex

[Nate]

I was talking to somebody about route cleaning super wet vegatated routes with Javex. They said spraying Javex on the moss worked well and was an easy, environmentally safe way to clean really dirty routes. I ask because using a wire brush or any other brush is pretty tough work in the same scenerio. Does anyone else have experience with using javex? Is it safe?

Thanks,
Nate

[dcentral]

Doesn't sound that environmentally Friendly. Wouldn't spraying water do the same thing?

[martha]

Javex definately isn't environmentally friendly, but it has been done. They did it in Clifton ME to clean the heavily vegitated cliffs there.

Check out these pics.. For the record.. the granite is really that white under the moss anyways... the Javex didn't bleach it....

http://www.beta-source.com/gal-frame.ph ... et=Clifton

in anycase.. I'd stick with the grunt work of scrubbing.... I don't like chemicals.

[*Chris*]

Agreed...

Most of those mosses and lichens are probably hardy critters. I expect that when scrubbed manually they stand a good chance of at least reproducing through spores if not becoming established somewhere else on the rock below where they land. Chemical weapons just are not cool.

I think 'leave no trace' should include a clause about not brodcast spraying solvents. It wouldn't make sense to you to leave your old bottles or powerbar wrappers at the cliff would it? So i think this has gotta go hand in hand.

My $0.02. Thanks.

[Fred]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_hypochlorite

Bleach (sodium hypochlorite) is used for treating drinking water so it can't be that toxic. Dentists also use it during root canals. Like all other salts it disolves/dilutes with water. Thus, only the local application will be concentrated and rain will disolve any of it into the nearby ecosystem.

The only thing I would worry about Nate is:
- the rock permanently changing color (do a test patch)
- mixing bleach and organics (dirt and lichen) can create trihalomethanes (also called haloforms) which are carcinogenic

Your best bet would be to spray one weekend then return the next to scrub. I've seen a guy in Conway rapping down with a pressurised tank sparying thingy. They use it for deck bleaching and spraying pesticides. It's a refilable platic tank with a manual pump, hose and nosel. You can buy them at Canadian Tire or the like.

[martha]

Fred has a point there...Damn...he always makes sense.

well...mostly. hehe

[john]

Nate,

With all do respect it doesn't make sense bottom line is "thermal decomposition of hypochlorite which ultimately generates environmentally-undesirable chlorate." Thernmal decomposition still take place even at ambient temperatures but is increased at higher temps. Point is we are alway taking hits from the nonclimbing public for environmental impact, justified or not, and if anyone finds out you are using bleach to kill anything it will be construed negavtivly, probably moreso than deserved. It will provide them ammo.

As for the argument that it is not harmful since it gets diluted. That is ridiculous. Hydrochloic acid, chlorine gas and greehouse gases for that matter are all nasty compounds when in high concentration but less so when diluted, however that has no bearing ion thre ffact that introducing them into the environment is a horrble idea and does have impact. Chlorine is used in water treatment and swimming pools yet is highly poisinous in high concentration, does that mean its ok to dump into the environment? Logic?

Anyway, If you do you use dilute it strongly for your own good, it will still kill the lichen. The guys using it do dilute it ,spray it and come back later to brush.

cheers

john

[peter]

For the record, if anyone is coming out to "Clean and Climb a Classic", it will be all spit and polish only, as we are climbing there the same day ...

[Nate]

I guess that sounds like a dumb question in retrospect but, I really don't know too much about bleach or very many other chemicals. Thanks for the knowledge john. I'll be getting out the brushes then.

Nate

[The Mitt]

I haven't done it, but have been looking into it as well. It seams there are many people arguing both ways as to the pros and cons. I would think that if used in moderation, on a really vegetated route is not that bad, but I'm not a scientist. I haven't seen any proof that it is bad and I know that many geologists use it. I would do like Fred suggested, spray a test spot and see what happens.

Mitt

[Stef]

I've have heard of geologists using bleach to clean certain key outcrops. There is no danger of damaging/bleaching granite; you need much nastier stuff to affect silicate minerals. Don't use it on limestone or marble however, you will dissolve it. As for the environmental effects; I agree will Fred, probably negligible after the first rainstorm, but then I work in the mining industry and have slightly skewed perspective

I can't speak to the possible carcinogenic effects however, sounds nasty. If you pour HCl on certain sulphide minerals, (eg. pyrite or fools gold, pretty common in many granites) you get toxic chlorine gas.

All things considered, I'd stick to the wire brush. I won't want to accidentally get bleach on my climbing gear either.

I have heard of guys in Squamish (70's) pouring gasoline down vegetated cracks and lighting it on fire. This seems to me to be a much safer and more sensible option. Do in the fall when the leaves are dry, it'll burn better

[Stef]

I just re-read Fred's post. Bleach is NaClO not HCl. Never mind what I said about dissolving limestone and toxic chlorine gas, I had my chemistry completely wrong. Man, am I ever a dumbass..

I just had another thought. Hydrogen Peroxide is sold as a "green" bleach. It should decompose into H2O and O2 right (any chemists out there?) Might work on lichen and be ultimately be safer.

Cheers,

Stef.

[*Chris*]

Hi folks,
I feel compelled to take a position here. Chemistry aside, I think the focus on cleaning should be on the results and not the means. Most exposed rock faces in our part of the world are relatively rare features on the landsape and they support a variety of vegetation / critters which have some pretty specific requirements. Though hardy in some ways, the vegetation on these crags is fragile and should be treated with some respect. Specifically, my position is that it should removed from targeted areas where necessary... but not broadly eliminated. With a brush, one can be in good control of what is treated; and one is not motivated to treat more than necessary. Pouring bleach down rock from the top is not justified and spot treatments with a spray bottle requires about as much effort as a wire brush anyway. Let's use these areas wisely. Thanks.

[vbpad]

well said

[Fred]

Chris, with all due respect I think you should clean a few 'green' mossy routes before you can say scrubbing is just as easy as spraying Javex. The truth is, the green moss and lichen just doesn't scrub because it's not dry and doesn't flake off.

[The Mitt]

I think what Chris has to say has some merit. There are 2 routes that I have in mind that I have been thinking about using bleech simply because of the huge amount of work to try and manualy scrub. I'm still really on the fence. Imagine that I don't have an opinion on something

Mitt

[Stevo]

As a chemist and oceanographer I know that a 5% solution of sodium hypochlorite (commonly called bleach) degrades rapidly to relatively harmless compounds. What is more important is the opinion of the landowners and general public. If the owner of, for example, Main Face, heard that climbers had been spraying his property with chemicals then his reaction could be less than positive. So for the sake of PR then probably best to stick with wire brushes.

cheers
Steve

[campbeas]

1. I agree with chris.
2. Regardless of whether we think Javex breaks down in the environment, I don't believe you should be spraying or pouring it into the environment.

We (people) have been saying that about random chemicals we've been spewing out into the world since the begining of civilization. Look where its gotten us. On the brink of environmental collapse.

If you want to climb something, clean it the hard way with just a brush and your hands. It will be more satisfying.

[mike]

pouring some large amount of any chemical down a rock face will be:

1. a drag- you've got to get the chemical to the top of the crag.

2. a hazard- after you leave the crag while the chemical is working...who know's what the next person comes along will be doing...perhaps having a picnic, or a little roll in the grass.

3. extra effort- no chemical is going to blast all the nasties into non-existance... you're gonna have to come back later and wire brush it.

4. a dissappointment- see 3.

5. inefficient- bleaches, solvents, thinners will act like any liquid you pour over things... they go where ever they like. They arn't composed of millions of little nano-climbers that know where the most effective cleaning should occur. also-see 3.

My vote is for the brush.

Mike

[seanT]

Mike another time another place im sure you would have said "my vote is for bush" but now your getting married and all respectable and stuff

[mike]

Dear Mr. Adams,
I'm writing to tell you that I miss all of your wonderful movies. I especially liked the one where you rappeled down the cliff to rescue the bear cub.
I havn't seen anything new from you in many years.
How come?
Thanks,
Humble Fan

Dear Humble Fan,
The '70's are over.
Thankfully,
Grizzley

Ps-Sean- if you wanna update your home movie selection. I've got a few titles you might be interested in

[Fred]

Point is we are alway taking hits from the nonclimbing public for environmental impact, justified or not, and if anyone finds out you are using bleach to kill anything it will be construed negavtivly, probably moreso than deserved. It will provide them ammo.

as I loaded my bag into John's car to go climbing on Sunday I spotted something interesting. So I reached down into the bottom of the trunk and pulled it out. Yes, there it was in the trunk of John's car, the same guy who challenged this very discussion. LOL A can of Raid equipped with a binner tapped onto it.

[martha]

Hell yes, either that or a Big Hex to kill those damn spiders with. John and I are both aracnophobic.......


YIKES!

[vbpad]

yeah i remember him spraying and cursing at the same time while cleaning a route near joe's