FYI chopping bolts

[john]

The messes I have seen from improper chopping are as bad as misplaced bolts, so if you must here is some info to do it right. A bit like giving clean needles to addicts, it doesn't solve the problem but might help from making part of the problem worse.

Good info on how to do it properly.

From supertopo:

Please add to the knowledge base in this post as an attempt to slow down and correct the gym climber mentality which is hitting our sport. For some reason there is a dearth of info on the web, and if you type in Chopping bolts, or Removing bolts, or How do I get bolts out of my climbing area after some jackass f*ed it up. All you get is "oh, you shouldn't chop the bolts cause it will damage the rock". WTF? Somebody decides, incorrectly, to just put them in and you have to leave them? That’s like a kid with a spray paint can telling you to leave the grafitti mess alone he made because if you try to clean it up it will mess up the wall: WTF? You already messed the wall up you dumbass. I do not expect this to be anything other than a rear-guard action which in the end will fail. Those gym climbers do not understand why bolts can't be used about everywhere, and I don't think some old F*cks like us will change that attitude, they're coming into the sport as fast as a cockroach infestation in a flour mill. However, I think if some chicken’s bolts get yanked IMMEDIATELY, then like graffiti "artists" they will go elsewhere. No compromise.

Like graffiti artists, you hear the rationales, "Hey - I created that special artwork on the rocks, what right do you have to remove it" or "If you don't like it then don't clip it" kind of crap. So if you come over to my house and sh#t in the corner because it makes you feel good, I can't clean it up because I might smear some sh#t around and make a mess? WET?

Ignore those weak young fools and their ignorant questions and statements. We have more right, and a duty, to correct that affront to an intelligent person’s sensibility and to do so in a way to minimize damage. Following this method, all that is left is the original hole the first jackass with a drill made: and even that is patched to perfection if you do it right.

Without further pre-amble:


Climbing Bolt and anchor removal instructions

Generally I don’t cotton much too removing bolts. I’ve had to do it a few times, so here are some points on instructions for removing bolts. I'm assuming that the party who will be restoring the rock has done the pre-chop discussion.

Do not "Chop Bolts" and do not follow the ASCA "American Safe Climbing Association" instructions for putting a tuning fork #4 modified Lost Arrow under the thing and working it out. That’s beautiful flowers and inefficient as hell unless you’re Arnold Schwarzenegger in his prime. For what they are doing, ie, pulling out old rusty mank, primarily 30-50 year old Warren Harding 1/4 split shank construction bolt, it will work fine. Won’t work worth a f*ck for what you want though. And generally leave that crowbar at home unless you are pulling glue ins, way too much work and mess to try and yank a bolt out. Do that if you want to replace one, not for restoration projects.

Here are some real instructions to “chop” or remove a bolt. May I highly suggest that you try this before you go up there. Go to a choss rock and drill and install a bolt with a hanger, just like a real one. Practice.

You may need some or all of this and I might have missed something:
1– big assed Hammer (ball peen style preferred)
metal drift pin or punch for smacking the stud below grade if you have a claw hammer not a ball peen.
1 cordless sawzall "the trad climbers friend" or hacksaw -10-14 TPI blades for your saw.
1 pair of regular style Vise Grips
Cold chisel or lost arrow
Epoxy putty
½ breaker bar or socket wrench
2 sizes of deep sockets, to fit 3/8 wedge anchors or 5 piece Rawl(Powers brand) bolts which are different sized.
A box end wrench- or open end, which will cover the 2 sizes you might need.
Gloves and safety eyeware are nice
Don’t bring a crowbar unless you are removing Glue-ins, then make sure it’s a stout 3 footer unless you are Arnold.
1 partner with great strength wouldn’t hurt either.


Buy a 1/2 breaker bar or heavy duty socket wrench. Don't cheap out here. Make sure it's a long one, @ 2' long. Longer is better, socket wrench is better than a breaker bar, as you'll find the first time you match wits with a bolt placed in a corner. The size of socket you need differs for a 3/8 wedge anchor and a 5 piece Rawl bolt. Buy the deep socket version for both sizes. Sure that will cost more but that’s what you want up there. Don't come pissing and moaning later to me if you just use a regular socket. Sometimes that works, sometimes the stud gets too high on the wedge anchor for a standard depth socket to work.

Listen closely, this is the important part. PUT THE WRENCH ON THE NUT AND TIGHTEN IT. Within seconds the damn thing will have broken flush, just perfect and you're done, finished and gone in 15 seconds. Rarely will this not do the trick, but there are moments. At this point, take some Epoxy putty, NOT fu*cking regular 2 part runny messy epoxy that’s going to run all over f*ck and make a F*ed up mess. You can get the stuff from Home Depot as well. If you keep it warm it's easier to kneed, as you need to do that to activate the 2 part epoxie process. Although they stopped carrying the wood color is dead on the money for most sandstones, the grey concrete stuff for basalt, for Granite, you don’t have a perfect choice or any colors close, you could use the metal color, but it will be visible unless you take a bunch of granite pebbles from the base and set one on each hole. You can also buy the wood fill color epoxy and mix it with the grey to lighten it somewhat. Resist the temptation to smear the sh#t all over the place. Fill the hole and only the hole: your goal is that the rainwater won't penetrate and freeze (freeze thaw cycle rules up there in the winter) then move on. If you spend more that 1 min on each bolt, it’s because you’re lazy, disorganized and/or a pussy. Unless you are in a cramped position of course.

For Rawl 5 piece, try to just unscrew it, if the winter has caused the threads to seize, and it only takes @ 2years in the mountains in No Cal. for this to happen on a non-stainless 5 piece, the hex head will pop right off. Don't bother fishing out the sleeve which is left in the hole. If your goal is a clean patch to prevent water infiltration, twisting it off so it breaks is better as then you have a solid base for the putty. That's my opinion.

There a few times where that wedge anchor will break slightly high or the wedge anchor didn’t set well originally and it spins. For the high break, simple, tap it down and then epoxy. If it’s a loose spinner wedge anchor, whew, this is where the boys get separated from the men. If the original drillers drilled it deeper than needed, you can do 1 of 2 things. With the nut backed out to within 2 threads, whack it down. If when down it doesn’t bottom out, take the nut off and hope there’s clearance for the coup de grace which will be the final whack of the hammer to make it flush. If not, try cranking it back tight with the wrench, it might lock and then you can just twist the nut off. Or you might consider doing this first which will work in either case, take a pair of vise grips to the stud. Lock it hard. If the damn things say “Made in Taiwan” on it, I’ll kick your ass. There is a difference in “Vice-Grip” brand and it’s the wrong venue for you to learn that lesson, spend the extra money. Anyway, clip the vise grip brand vise grips onto the stud and take an open or box end wrench (which was already put on the nut if it was a box end) and crank it tight. Most likely you won’t twist it off, not enough leverage. So then you back the nut off leaving the flat washer on to help protect the rock, saw the stud flush, Whack-epoxy-pebbles-move on etc etc. Here’s where it gets pissy. A cordless sawzall with the Milwaukee brand 14 TPI (tooth per inch) will run through that stud in @ 10 seconds. Most brands of cordless saws have a real slick quick change feature that allows you to put a blade in or change it out if it dulls with your fingers in @ 5 seconds. But this is a wilderness area, so you have to use a regular hacksaw. Stanley makes one that tensions very strong. Get quality and save yourself about a thousand saw strokes. Pay attention to the blades you buy as well. 10-14 TPI should work for you. Anyway, if you saw @ ½ way you can whack it back and forth a couple of times with the hammer and it will metal fatigue right off, take care that you don’t spall the rock, you don't want to make a big mess. If done properly, this will be invisible from 3 feet away.

Glue ins are real easy to deal with. Get a 3’ long crowbar; stick the chisel end into the opening, and twist counter clockwise. The strongest version of these bolts out there, the Petzl Bat’inox, despite the 50KN rating, will fall within 30 seconds of you doing this. The first 3 twists are the hardest, almost as hard as doing a pushup if you use your knees like a kid. Then it starts to get real easy, real quick to the point where you can do a hand job and spin it right out via hand. Remember that the bolt is still threaded, and it comes out counterclockwise, so bring a watch if you think you might forget that fact cause it’s important.

The split shank button head construction bolts, which look to be invincible as there is no obvious way to get it out, can be dealt with alacrity as well no matter if it’s a 3/8 or a ¼”. Just take your little cordless sawzall, the trad climber’s friend, and saw the head off. If it’s perfectly set, a cold chisel tap right under the head will make a mark for starting the cut. It takes 10-20 seconds to peel the head off with the trad climber’s friend and the hanger will fall right off. Tap and epoxy.

It's real work. Having quality tools will make removal quicker and almost easier than placing them the first time with a Bosch Bulldog. Now go do your duty and get her done.

This is a repost; I thought it would be timely.

[dcentral]

Is there like a coles notes version of that post?

[*Chris*]

John... just curious why you thought this timely?

[szymiec]

bolt chipper = big ego + small p e n i s

[chossmonkey]

John... just curious why you thought this timely?

I was going to ask the same thing, but thought I should let a few others comment first.

[Stef]

Not always a case of smalldickitis I don't think. We had a case of someone bolting a well protected, 5.4 crack. They put bolts in, seemingly at random, next to a perfect gear crack. The first two were so low they would not have kept you off the deck. As I recall there was a botched hole as well. It really didn't make any sense at all, almost like some was just playing with a drill. I was happy to see those get chopped.

[Anonymous]

John... just curious why you thought this timely?

i wonder too. just a random post? or is it directed at someone's efforts?

[szymiec]

maybe he meant to say 'timeless'

[chossmonkey]

maybe he meant to say 'timeless'

Either way there is a lot of drivel in there that makes reading it almost as painful as looking at bolts right next to a perfectly good crack. It probably should have been cleaned up a bit first.