kyoto

[martha]

References for what part? all of this info is available at the DFO.

I haven't seen the videos, but I can put you in contact with the fishermen who took the biologists, fisheries officers and cameras out on their boats for some of the videos. That would be my father and brother. My father, over 40 years ago was working with DFO and biologists to help keep the fishery sustainable. He has sat on committies and been involved in forums (not the internet kind) in Canada, the US and in Europe discussing this very topic. It isn't new to fishermen at all.

The videos I am sure are available at the DFO video library. Probably also at the Bedford institute of Oceanography or at the Dalhousie Marine Biology Dept.

The information about certain areas being closed, the same areas being fished now as nearly 100 years ago, scallop and lobstering having record years and about using the same equipment as 15 years ago is common knowledge among fishermen and in fishing communities.

If you wish, I can find out more information, likely get you studies and videos on the topic. Though I'm sure you have some contacts in the industry of your own.

[lazy mathieu]

A 2 point question.

1) Were can I procure myself said scallops (mmmmm scallops)

2) You folks could keep arguing till the cows come home about the finer points of scallop fishing, forestry, mining, barley and hop harvesting and other natural resources. Now my recommendation is stop nit-picking at the little stuff and look at the bigger picture. Planet Dialectics by Wolfgang Sacks discusses a few interesting points about "sustainable" development. Just what are we trying to sustain is an important question you have to keep in mind.

oh and adam, divers are wrecking the australian coral reef just fine so I think even if fisherman would go back to primitive/archaic method of harvesting shell fish, the longer term effect would be the same. You should get a job at DFO, you'd fit right in.

[mathieu]

You should get a job at DFO, you'd fit right in.

Let me just elaborate cause I'd rather back up what I say.

It always seems easy to critizizes and blame others in destroying the environment. People who work directly in the harvesting of natural resources are too often called "backwards", and we (most of us on this board and climbers in general) seem to be always suggesting that they adapt to our way of thinking. Who made us so high and mighty? Oh right I've got a degree in so and so and took a few classes in social this and poli sci that and read books that have fancy names such as "Dialectics". Point being they take a lot of harsh critisism but the reality is we use wood, we need to eat (ocean is 70% of the earth right, that's one hell of a food supply), we use plastc (thank the oil companies for that one), and we sure use silicon chips. So before telling fisherman to return to the stone age and start fishing like they did in 200AD, get rid of all your computer stuff cause that industry is causing a hell of a lot of pollutants. Get ready to walk the walk if your gonna talk the talk.

So the comment about the DFO job is meant as this. DFO is a bunch of paper pushing bureaucrats (its not an insult but the plain truth), most of them with little fishing history (well maybe trout fishing with Gramps but that's it). They manage this resource in a benevolent way (there I go with big words). "don't worry little fishermen we'll tell you how to manage your livelyhood, oops sorry about the cod"

Now calling fisherman dumb is just being pretensious and arogant.

I'm done with this rant.

PS: Cara is the only one that actually has sources or references, most of this thread is based on hersay and writers opinion.

PSS: Please send 1lbs of scallops to Best Western Crusader Inn Stettler Alberta C/O Lady Wilson Cleavage.

[Guest]

Now calling fisherman dumb is just being pretensious and arogant.

PS: Cara is the only one that actually has sources or references, most of this thread is based on hersay and writers opinion.

1 - mat, i guess you missed the sarcasm when i called fishermen dumb. i do not think that, and my point was that they are NOT stupid, and COULD learn to dive. guess i'll use the <sarcasm> tags next time for you.

2 - it is presumptuous and incorrect of you to suggest that Cara is the only one with sources simply because she is a fisherman's daughter. I am a diver. have dived for 15 years in the bay of fundy. have seen first hand what draggers have done to the sea floor. i have participated in and have had close contact with fish farms, urchin diving, recreational diving, DFO initiatives and studies, etc. i think i am as or more qualified to talk about what is happening at the bottom of the sea than she is. tell me cara, how many times have you seen what a dragger has done to the sea bottom? with your own eyes?? that's what i thought.

my dad's a doctor, so along your lines of reasoning mat, i should be the foremost opinion (along with any other medical person's children on this site) on the problems with medicare right now... get real.

3 - the inshore bottom type is vastly different from the coral reefs of the south pacific. yes, divers CAN and DO do a lot of damage to coral reefs. one kick here, another there and what took hundreds of years to grow is killed. would divers impact the seabottom as much as draggers do? i severely doubt it. especially if they are only diving in <100ft of water. the rest of the sea bottom would remain unimpinged.

4 - what i suggested, again, was a SUGGESTION. let's hear someone's else's proposal. in the mean time, the carnage will continue and we will have nothing left. probably already too late anyway.

5 - i'm not blaming hte fishermen. they have a living to make. the problem is not them... its the whole system. what cara freaks out about is that changes to the system will most affect the fishermen... well ltough titty... same thing has happened to many different occupations in the past couple hundred years as industries become more responsible. take coal for example. how many mines have shut down for safety reasons? poor coal miners... what shall they ever do? oh, right, suck it up and find another job.

[martha]

like I said earlier, most of the scallop dragging is done at 300 ft or more...where divers don't go. That is where tsome studies have been done, and that is where the video footage was taken.

I'm not disagreeing that draggers hurt the bottom in shallow waters. In fact, if you re read my earlier comments you'll see that I agree with you on that point. Of course I haven't seen it first hand. I don't dive. But I have talked with biologists, and been at the dinner table with DFO, fishermen and biologists who are talking about what is happening with dragging. I have been at some meetings with my father and have read a lot on the subject.

These fishermen are working on better ways to do what they do every single day. they know that this is a resource that needs to be managed. Every single point that you and I have both brought up adam have been discussed in great detail by people smarter than us who know a lot more about the subject and have more first hand experience than you and I will ever have.

What I do disagree with is that you are saying that the scallop stocks are in danger.

I have never said that I know everything about this subject. All I have said is that I am very attached to it. I think with good reason. I will offer anyone the references and find them the information that I am talking about.

that is all i have to say.

[mitchleblanc]

what cara freaks out about is that changes to the system will most affect the fishermen... well ltough titty... same thing has happened to many different occupations in the past couple hundred years as industries become more responsible. take coal for example. how many mines have shut down for safety reasons? poor coal miners... what shall they ever do? oh, right, suck it up and find another job.

I agree, though in her mild defence, she did say she was "torn". The fact is, worrying about some stupid fishermen's livelyhood is the exact reason that Kyoto is doomed from the get-go: No one will sacrifice their own comfort. I've said it before and I'll say it again... no amount of effort is going to help. We're all gonna die!

[martha]

PSS: Please send 1lbs of scallops to Best Western Crusader Inn Stettler Alberta C/O Lady Wilson Cleavage.

You have to come visit me Mat,

But you know I always have scallops in my freezer!! I will share with you anytime.

[Guest]

What I do disagree with is that you are saying that the scallop stocks are in danger.

its a bigger picture than the scallop stocks. its the entire sea's health that is at stake. BIG PICTURE. you're missing the point.

[Guest]

that is all i have to say.

i sincerely doubt that is all you have to say.

[martha]

its a bigger picture than the scallop stocks. its the entire sea's health that is at stake. BIG PICTURE. you're missing the point.

I thought we were talking about scallop dragging in particular and what it did to the ocean floor and if it harmed the scallops ability to sustain themselves. You didn't talk about the entire sea's health until just now.

That is a different topic I think. One that I can have more to say on. I said i have nothing more to say about scallop dragging, and I don't.


Okay, well, there are a lot of things harming the 'entire sea's health' things far worse than scallop dragging. It is a different subject.

[Guest]

Okay, well, there are a lot of things harming the 'entire sea's health' things far worse than scallop dragging. It is a different subject.

not a different subject. all the same subject. again, you're missing the point.

[john b]

I thought this site was for climbing relatesd topics only, I thought that it was stated clearly that topics not pertaining to climbing would be deleted. This being climbing related at this point, is a stretch. Come on moderators get rid of this flowers, besides it is just extending the infighting that this forum already has to much of.

[Fred]

Adam,

in the end I think your angle just requires a bit more diplomacy and compassion over the whole issue. Calling us dumb and waving superiority over our opinions is not productive and just alright disrespectfull. We are simply trying to bring valid points to the discussion and you shoot our intelligence down. no?


John,

I've been waiting for someone to lock this thread but I guess I'll end up being the 'bad' guy again by putting an end to the discussion. I'm sorry people aren't able to control their emotion in discussion but c'est la vie I guess. As for non-climbing related discussion... Had the topic been about paintballing this weekend I'm sure no one would have a problem with it. This portion of the forum (general chat) is just that. I've asked that people only post "constructive" messages. Meaning, no non-sense bashing etc. I think/hope or would like to think that we can have adult discussions about important issues. I guess some just can't control themselves. I guess we'll see.

Peace out.