Trad rack to start

[Dom]

I'm considering getting a rack for a number of reasons. Any suggestions?

I was thinking the two Metolius ultralight power cams packs they sell at Mec. 1-4 and 5-8. On top of that set of nuts either from BD or Dmm, a nut tool.

I know I need to get a few oval biners. As for extendable runners, is it really mandatory as I already have 14 quickdraws of varying length. I know it's probably better with runners but by no means will this be an exhaustive rack. I need something I can start with...

Do you trad experts think this is enough?
( Oh yeah I already have 5 or 6 locking biners, and 3 runners for anchors)...
I also already have cordelette...

[Matt Peck]

Save yourself a lot of time and just get black diamond camalots.
wild country zeros fill in the small sizes. don't bother with u stems.

[The Mitt]

Well You would have to answer a few questions first.
Where do you climb, different areas have different gear? Like gunks - tricams are pretty much a must.
What level do you climb at. Harder climbs usually take smaller gear (yes I know this is subjective) if you want to stick to 5.7 and below micro nuts are not needed.

What I would suggest is to climb with someone who has a rack and try their gear. Find out what you like and what you don't. Power cams are great but I don't like them, not for any reason other than I don't like the feel of them. I buy Wild country, and BD almost exclusively. If you buy the package deal not having used the cams you may have wasted your money.

For NS climbing I suggest a set of nuts med to large sized, hexes med to large sized and cams sized (Black diamond) .4 - 3. Start with the nuts, then the Hexes then the cams. I could be wrong but I think that rack will do for Welsford as well but I have not climbed there much.

Hope that helps

[The Mitt]

Long runners are important. Most people including myself don't extend their gear enough. Before using a cordelette on multi-pitch take a read of John Longs latest book on anchors or goto RC.com and read the incredibly long thread on cordelettes. They may not be as safe and self equalizing as you think.

Mitt

[Fred]

The Metolius cams are nice but the BD cams are nicer if you can afford them. You can easily get away without runners when starting off. You'll learn about rope drag the hard way. hehe

recommended BD Camalot sizes for Welsford

2 @ 0.5
2 @ 0.75
2 @ 1.0
1 @ 2.0
1 @ 3.0

[The Mitt]

If your new to placing gear longer runners are not only to lessen rope drag. Very important to know that short draws such as sport draws can help a cam/marginal nut walk. People who are very good at placing gear can get away with shorter slings because you can judge what affect your movements and the ropes movement will have on the piece.

Mitt

[Dom]

Thanks for the advices

As for answering questions I have seconded a few times (Welsford, Cannon NH) but did'nt really pay attention on the company of the cams I was retreiving.
This upcoming season I plan to climb in the Gunks in NY, Red River Gorge in Kentucky, Pinacle Moutain and Mount Orford in the Eastern Townships Québec,Cochrane Lane and most definitely in the canadian rockies. Perhaps a trip to Skaha Bluffs...(without counting out beautiful SPORT Rumney) I know with all these places I probably need a big ass rack but I just want something to get started.... I'm still going to do 75% sport (depending where I go obviously).

I climb 5.11's( hoping to be at 12s by the Fall)so I figure 5.9 will be my big challenge for trad. Hence, I'll probably need nuts.

A buddy I climb with who does trad also told me to get BD . I might as well go for BD cause I think according to a bunch of people that it's the unanimous choice.... My Grand-Pa once told me if it's worth doing , it's worth doing well (Si ça mérite d'être fait, ça mérite d'être bien fait)

Now I see there are C4's and C3s. Wich one of these should I get.

[The Mitt]

You will see that C3 is a smaller cam and the C4 is the "General" range of cams. I would start with the .5 and work up to 3. Like Fred recommended. If you want super small cams wait for a bit Met is coming out with something that is supposed to be revolutionary (or at least a good replacement for aliens). I find C3's very hard to retract and they look like they won't hold up to abuse ( I could be wrong as I don't own any C3's).

Please learn from someone who knows how to place gear. It may save your life. Many high end climbers find themselves on relatively easy ground but in trouble with gear placements. If your a 5.12 sport climber you may have trouble with a 5.8 off-width.


Mitt

[Dom]

Thanks for the advices.
As for:

Please learn from someone who knows how to place gear. It may save your life. Many high end climbers find themselves on relatively easy ground but in trouble with gear placements. If your a 5.12 sport climber you may have trouble with a 5.8 off-width.

Don't worry. I have no intention on going alone... I have seen falls on a video and I'm actually pretty scared of falling on trad. I know that the best cam that is badly placed is not better than an old rusted dysfunctional cam... I shall be prudent

[chossmonkey]

I'll stick my neck out and suggest not getting BD in the smaller sizes. I have BD from #1 up but I use Metolious for all my smaller units up to the black Met. Having TCU's in the smallest units. A lot of people really don't like the C3's and I find the head widths in the smaller C4's to be to wide. You could probably do the change a little smaller.

[martha]

I"m with Fred on the BD c4's from .5 and up. Then I happen to like the metolius smaller cams (blue and yellow - not sure of the size but they have 3 lobes)
I'd get a rack of the BD Stoppers for nuts and double up on the mid sizes. They are the same as the old Smileys which are the best nuts ever. I managed to get myself a rack of those puppies on the gear swap one time. Yahoo.

Draws will work at first, but I'd definately get runners and some lockings for those. a couple of Petzl Attache locking biners are nice for busy trad anchors as they have lots of space for multiple points.

To test your gear knowledge at first, leave the cams behind and start leading on your passive gear (nuts/tricams/hexes) You learn a lot about gear placements and how things work when doing that. Then when you are in a pinch and have to rely on the passive gear, you'll have some good practice with it. I actually prefer a good nut over a cam anyday.

Have fun! and spend lots.. hahaha.

[granite_grrl]

I'll have to second Chossy here. I think BD C4s under the 0.75 are cumbersome. I actually have a 0.5 and it is always left at home in preferance to my Metolius, the heads of the C4s are huge compared to Metolius in those sizes. Bigger cams (#2 BD and up) I'd take BD over Metolius any day.

Metolius is also coming out with a single stem desigen this spring I think. I would consider looking at those. I haven't seen them, but I've heard good things from those that have played with them.

You need a set of nuts, but I have climbed up to 5.10a on gear (not many yet, but I have climbed a number of 5.9s in a number of areas) and have not felt I need micro nuts yet. A regular set of nuts will do you fine at first.

I think that you need to make up some extendable draws. Generally I like to carry 4-8 depending on the area. A couple of double length slings can help quite a bit depending where you're climbing too (great at the Gunks when extending under roofs, etc, also good for slinging trees on the route).

[*Chris*]

Climb on someone else's gear before you buy... it's worth your while to wait. For instance, I find the Metolius in the smaller sizes very difficult to manipulate. Entirely due to my fat fingers rather than the cam design. As such... I have BD C4s down to .3 and I like it (and used it on almost every pitch I lead last summer).

My advise on nuts is... that others have given you good advise on nuts.

The only thing I'd add is about the runners. Since you've already got a lot of sport draws don't bother buying any more biners for now. What I recommend as a good move to save money is to get 4 of the skinny (I like 8mm) slings and swap out the biners on your sport draws when doing trad. Takes 1 minute to do if you're switching from sport to trad. My other advise is to dedicate skinny slings to only use on trad runners. Using them to sling natural features and build anchors will end their life pre-maturely due to wear. Using them to sling boulders, horns, or telephones might end your life pre-maturely due to a tear. I carry double-length burly old nylon slings along with me to sling and hitch features and trees. You'll find natural pro on almost every easy-to-moderate trad climb, and you won't be able to take advantage of it with only sport draws. If you do buy any of the skinny slings (and you should), know their limitations... specifically w.r.t. hitching.

[Shawn B]

Large cams...Black Diamond .5 and up X 2
Small cams...wait 'til spring for the new Metolius offering. TCU's are good and Aliens have the best design but the worst manufacturing. BD C3's are nice for horizontal placements but not so much for vertical placements as they are too stiff in that orientation and tend to walk.
Nuts...a set of BD from 4-13 and double up on the middle sizes with BD or the DMM's are nice in the medium sizes.
Skinny slings trippled up are the best trad "draw". I still carry a few draws as well. Nothing wrong at all with a cordelette for a trad anchor. Just know its limitations.

I will be selling a .5 through #3 camalot (not new C4). The .5 thru #2 are approx 15 years old with new slings this spring and the #3 is approx 5 years old. All in used but not abused shape. .5 and .75 are U stem. The #3 is vg condition. Prob $25 a piece. Nice way to double up on those sizes for cheap.

[Adam]

i'd simply recommend that you go with the best from the start. it's very tempting to buy the cheaper cams, but eventually you're going to ogle someone else's camalots etc and wish you hadn't skimped out. it might take more time to gather the gear, but it's not the sort of stuff you need to replace very often.

also, go with wild country helium biners for racking and draws. again, more expensive, but you won't regret it.

[STeveA]

If you want to learn how to place good pro, and you are not in too much of a hurry, I would recommend similar to Cara; Buy and use passive devices for a while. This will allow you to learn good nut craft.

The cams are quick and easy to place, but this often means that people do not understand the physics involved in a protection system. Buy a couiple of sets of nuts, smaller Tri-cams and some hexes. These will get you up most climbs, unless you are going for parallel or flaring cracks. The nice thing is that you could get all these for the price of a few cams.

I would not recommend taking the bines off your sport quickdraws since you have to be careful not to use the biner that goes into bolts on the rope, and this is tricky to keep track of on slings.

Slowly add cams as you find a need for them.

[chossmonkey]

If you want to learn how to place good pro, and you are not in too much of a hurry, I would recommend similar to Cara; Buy and use passive devices for a while. This will allow you to learn good nut craft.

The cams are quick and easy to place, but this often means that people do not understand the physics involved in a protection system. Buy a couiple of sets of nuts, smaller Tri-cams and some hexes. These will get you up most climbs, unless you are going for parallel or flaring cracks. The nice thing is that you could get all these for the price of a few cams.

I'll third that.

Also, I'm a lot more leery of cams now in parallel sided cracks since having 3 of them (seemingly bomber) in about 10 feet rip out with a short fall.

I would not recommend taking the bines off your sport quickdraws since you have to be careful not to use the biner that goes into bolts on the rope, and this is tricky to keep track of on slings.

Slowly add cams as you find a need for them.

Second that too. Changing biners is a PITA not to mention possibly dangerous if you get the rope in the hacked up bolt end biner. I routinely climb sport and gear in the same day. I don't want to be constantly putting biners back into dogbones from the runners.

[*Chris*]

That's interesting... I have not noticed any adverse affects on my bolt-end biners as of yet... but they are colour coded on my rack and I'll keep an eye on them. Then again, I try not to fall... even on bolts.

[Dom]

I would not recommend taking the biners off your sport quickdraws since you have to be careful not to use the biner that goes into bolts on the rope, and this is tricky to keep track of on slings.

I fall pretty frequently (whippers can be exhilerating )and I can really see the difference between my bolt end biners and my rope biners. Furthermore, I also marked all my bolt end biners with white tape. I think I'll keep use these biners for now. I don't mind fiddling with my gear before an ascent and I would rather use my money

Again thanks for all the advices. I think I'll start with passive gear and go from there...

[Matt Peck]

Yeah, I notice the difference between my draw biners for sure. I find as long as you keep racking them properly, switching ends is never a prob. Also, I usually run two different types/colours of biners on my draws, so it's a moot point.
I agree with Chris on the BD cams. I have lots of smaller sized bd c4s and I love them. Head width is never a problem. (we don't have alot of bombays out here in welsford). Plus, cleaning those smaller metolious cams is retarded, and my fingers aren't as big as Norfolks.
That said, I don't like my c3s. Good placements, but stiff and hard to pull. I also don't like how they flex in shallow vertical placements. It's just a narrow u stem really.
My plug is for Wild Country zeros. Fan-fing tastic cams.
You might want to buy more than 4 runners for your draws as well. I usually run a 50-50 split and that works out pretty well.