Aren’t we overdue for a bolt discussion?

[The Teth]

Isn’t it a tradition to have a discussion about bolting every Fall so that the new climbers can get an idea of where the community stands on the issue? I guess it takes a lot of effort for everyone to do all that writing, and people just aren’t worked up right now, so I thought I would save people the effort this year and just post a classic thread from 2003 (predates this particular forum). I think there is a lot of good stuff in this thread. Keep in mind that this was from three years ago. The newbe climbers in this thread have three years more experience now, and probably know those old guys a lot better now too, and visa versa.

I have added names and some of the less informative posts were probably discarded.

Teth

Blast from the past: “To Bolt or Not To Bolt?”

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Tracstarr (AKA Keath):

who decides what gets bolted and what doesn't? and if i go out and bolt a route am i going to get b#$%*ed at? or if i place rap bolts at the top of a route? and also, i know there are a lot of lines that require "mixed" protection; but what about those of us who really don't have the interest in trad protection.... if bolts were added to such routes for sport climbers.... why (cuz i know it'll happed) would you get yelled at?

now nobody really 'owns' the rock as far as thouse that climb most of them. and i'm sure that most bolts that exist are not set by the rock 'owners'. so really, there is nothing stopping anyone from placing bolts where ever they want. Now i'm not saying i'm planning on putting bolts everywhere, or any at all for that matter - right now anyway, i'm more curious.

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The Mit (AKA Sean Kelly):

To answer your question is that nobody can stop you really from putting bolts. Nobody can stop someone from pulling bolts either. Many people may be very angry at you for putting bolts in on already established lines. As someone that has put up a few routes mixed and trad (non of great quality I might add I can only offer my opinion, and that is to retro bolt or add bolts to existing lines without a large acceptance from the community is wrong. People who "pioneer" routes put alot of work into them and most see them as an expression of their sport and what it means to them. To alter a route that has been climbed is really disrespecting the first ascensionist and the way they climbed it. If you are the first person to climb the route it would be wrong to bolt a 5.7 crack (and a waste of money) just because you don't want to place gear.

Bolts have a place and are good. The place is where you can't put gear. When you put a bolt in a rock its there for a very long time. If you feel that if a route has bolts then you want to climb it that’s great but your feelings should not alter my experience on the rock. I have been to a few places in the U.S where the cliff is grid bolted, man it really took away from the experience. I would ask that before you place a bolt think about if its necessary ask some of the people who put routes up in the area, follow the ethic that is already established. We have a very pure and clean ethic of climbing in Nova Scotia we should be proud of it.

Just my 2 cents
Mitt
gets down from soapbox

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Pulldown (AKA Todd Foster):

OK I'll bite.

"...to retro bolt or add bolts to existing lines without a large acceptance from the community is wrong"

Hey Sean i'm not pointing you out or anything with this quote, it's just raises an interesting question.


With the community growing and with the increasing number of small sub-communities forming, how do we determine what the community wants or sees as acceptable?
Thoughts? Comments?

Todd

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The Mit (AKA Sean Kelly):

Your absolutly right Todd. I don't know the answer to that question. But I do know 2 things to be true.
1. Retro bolting is a scary thing. Who decides and who does it?
2. Eventualy bolts get bad with time and need to be replaced.

There are questions there that I can't answer.

Maybe I am being misunderstood. I would never endorse bolting a line that has already been done with gear. I do think in time bolts need to be replaced ie. Eagles nest. Alot of people have discussed retro bolting JP's arete, maybe not adding bolts but removing and bolting it better. As much as I think it would be nice its a road I would never go down.

Sean (A.K.A Mitt)

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Tracstarr (AKA Keath):

i agree. there are definatly differnt groups and communities of climbers, and you can tell for the most part. there are definatly different opinions for each of these - some are the same, some are not. in the end, i don't think anyone will be happy. things are ok now, but i don't think it will be long before certain sub-communities disagree on what another did to a certain route or crag and there will be nothing but fights and one group xxxxed off at another. face it, since almost all climbing is not done on rock that a climber actually owns and has the right to say do or don't, people will end up doing what they fell is proper at the time. i don't mean to be the lump on the log, but it's bound to happen as the sport grows.

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Sealevel (AKA Chris ________):

I agree.

Even though climbing in Nova Scotia has a really short history, it is worth taking a cue from climbing areas with a longer history of exploration.

Take Great Brittan, where you to can climb Cenotaph Corner in Lannberis pass, and xxxx your trousers just like Joe Brown did on the first asscent back in the 40s, or 50s; I dont know when exactly. And even with the best modern equipment you can still get close to that experience of raw exploration and discovery on your own personal level. This is because the british have a very strong community concensus to retain the historical character of their climbs.

But the point is that we have recognized the need to preserve the nature of these climbs at the time of their first ascent as a record of the history of our sport. If everything eventually gets retro-bolted, the climbers of the future will never know the experiences we have had, of risking the unknown, running it out, the feeling of independent self sufficency after providing your own protection on lead. Even though many people are introduced to our via the climbing gym, this is not the exclusive future of our sport, just read the "Hot Flashes" section in Climbing Magazine.
One of the good things things in all of this is that it is widely accepted that if someone goes out into the woods, cleans and bolts their new line on new rock, that this is ok and in fact should be preserved just the same, in the state that they first climbed it in, becoming part of the history of our local climbing community.

Personally, I highly recommend to everyone to give trad climbing a chance. In my 11 years climbing, it is still fresh and never fails to excite, confound, and arouse the adrenal gland.

And tracstarr, lets go climbing.

chris

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c.eager (Chris Eager):

I'm with sealevel! In our situation in NS, where there is plenty of NEW route potential all over the province, retro bolting any route is ridiculous in my opinion. Get out there and put up some new routes or clean off some old ones. If the first ascentionist dictates the style it stays that way. Our climbing history is distinct let's keep it that way.

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stokedsean (Sean K ):

bolts are for wussies and weenies who care about numbers not aesthetics.

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c.eager (Chris Eager):

What do numbers have to do with bolts? 5.13 gear gets led all the time in places like Indian Creek and Yosemite or The Peak. And what about pre placed gear some routes aren't worth the risk of falling without pro, therefore and you see this more and more often hard gear climbs being led with preplaced gear or pinkpointed. Some x or r or E routes might as well be solos in a guidebook for some people, In fact nowadays you read about hard grit climbers soloing routes after working them on Top Rope. I think it's more about risk or maybe it's more than that? We as climbers use that word aesthetic a whole lot, but what are we using it to decribe the rock or the actual climbing?. The dictionary states

" Aesthetic -1.adj having to do with the beautiful, as distinguished from the useful, scientific or moral; based on or determined by beauty rather by practical or moral considerations 2.(of persons) Showing an appreciation of beauty in nature and art."3. (of things)showing good tastes in; artistic pleasing."

or

"Aesthetics - The study of beauty in art and nature; philosophy of beauty or taste; theory of the fine arts."

Both definitions from the world book encyclopedia dictionary.

Personally when I refer to the word aesthetic or aesthetics it could mean any one of those definitions. If ones own personal philosophy regards climbing as a art then I think that would include the movement which I believe is something I strive to be in tune with. Of course your surroundings and the line the rock provides is of a great factor in the aesthetics of climbing as well, and can only enhance your experience. Now certainly bolts might tarnish the beauty of the rock but it could also be argued that the risk involved in climbing something dangerous impede's the aesthetic of your movement or your enjoyment. Climbing something and enjoying that feeling of pure concentration, of not thinking and just moving would be difficult to achieve without the use of bolts in certain situations or for certain individuals. I guess some people who climb appreciate this quality in climbing that they try to push it to their absolute limit, some just feel they cannot achieve it without the use of bolts, or aren't willing to take the risks involved, I don't blame them. Others find they can push the fear out of their heads and solo or do something at their limit with little to no good gear as protection, and enjoy themselves and the aesthetic of the movement. But face it, if people want to push the art of climbing to maximum aesthetic in movement then they should be afforded that right, it just happens that the present day level has surpassed the availability of safe naturally protected lines therefore there has been an increase in bolted lines most of which are totally legit as far as being naturally unprotectable, unless your suicidal. Therefore I see bolts as a totally legitimate use of protection as long as the rules are followed, which is why Nova Scotia has so many mixed climbs.

Maybe there needs to be better education surrounding these topics,
perhaps a climbing appreciation class? Personally I think that would ruin the adventure that comes with climbing.

My last words

If you choose to perceive climbing as merely a sport it will only confuse you more and more because sports are bound by rules that limit certain advancements. Looking at climbing from the viewpoint of art or self expression will show you how to enjoy climbing more, than if you continually try and bind rules around the issues that surround climbing ethics. Personally I have looked at martial arts as a basis for my philosophy for climbing. Go watch Bruce Lee's Enter the Dragon special edition and apply his philosophy of Jeet Kune Do to Climbing, it might surprise you.

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Tracstarr (AKA Keath):

well, it seems i've steped into a no climb zone with this one. It's interesting to see that it's the more experienced climbers who have most likley been involved near the start of climbing in NS who have some strong opinions.

don't get me wrong, i see the point that everyone seems to have so far, "keep the route as it was first climbed", but to me it doesn't take. a route is a route and the way it's climbed is up to the climber. there are plenty of routes that could be TR, sport, trad or mixed all at the same time - but isn't it in the end up to the climber how they climb it? I've TR'ed a lot of 'mixed' routes - does that mean I can't put it on my tick list because I didn't climb it mixed? i don't think so.

if you want that extra thrill of running out a climb or whatever tickles your nickel, having an extra bolt on a route isn't going to stop you, just skip it. ultimatley, in the end it's up to you how the route is climbed.

sure there are still a lot of FA's to be had in NS, but i think it's safe to say that the most well traveled crags are pretty full (for an average climbers range, i'm sure there's still some 5.13s or something out there). and isn't it all about the experience? that seems to come accross all the comments so far. what about those climbers who are never going to get into trad or whatever, who's the one that gets to take away from there 'experience' just because something doesn't have TR bolts or sport bolts?

i dunno, i just think there should be a hell of a lot more complete sport climbs then what i've found so far. and espically on those routes that have say 3 bolts and only missing that one last 4th to make the climb much safer? I'm not into taking that chance with my life to run out on such a climb or even chance a fall that leaves me 3 or 4 feet from the ground. that's not the 'experience' i want.
anyway, this is just my opinion, so don't everyone go get their panties in a knot thinking i'm going to go bolting everything out there, CUZ I'M NOT. i'm just curious as to how things work in this 'community' as i've only got now one summer of outdoor climbing under my belt. however, there are a few lines that i think should get that 1 extra bolt to please a hell of a lot of people. espically those that haven't been involved from the start. just imagine if basketball or hockey or whatever sport haden't evolved...still play with peach baskets because that's how basketball was first played.... i think not. and hey, why use these new fancy cams and nuts for protection? aren't just different sized knots in some rope good enough?

just my 2 cents, so don't go getting all mad at me now.

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Anonymous:

How come it is always some little hot-shot wiener who starts
talking about bolting? If these "kids" had any real respect for climbing and the rock they climb on, they would realize that placing bolts is not cool. Stick to showing off at the gym with your 'biners on your book bag.

P.S. think about it this way Trackstar, you sure wouldn't want to see a xxxx-load of bolts covering those lovely little Boulders you guys climb on. They would get in your way, they would look ugly and lets face it, who ever would need bolts on a 6 foot "climb" shouldn't be climbing it anyway, right?


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Craggie Craig (Craig Piccolo):

THERE IS NO "SPORT CLIMBING" IN NS

OK a little melodramatic, but I believe there is not a good progression of climbing here in NS. Being from Victoria, BC I can tell you there is serious lack of 5.9- bolted routes around. I know it's not about numbers, but in a previous post [where to draw the line] C.Eager said "...Grades not important? Personally I like to know that a gnarly trad line with two pieces of gear and potential groundfall is well within my ability before I try to lead it...". This a very good point and it backs up my arguement, we need to walk before we can run. Here in Nova Scotia there is quite a number of "runners" who have been around for a while, but (and no discrespect) there is also a few "kids" as Anonymous calls them who would like to learn to walk.

Think about it: Really, there is no easy progression from top-roping to full-out trad unless you insert sport climbing. If not for the comfort level, but for the COST!!!

So I'm a new climber who's played on 5.10's in the gym, and top-roped 5.9's outside and now I'm saying what's next? Oh, now it's FULL ON TRAD, because there is very few (maybe 6) routes around that are within my comfort level to try "sport-climbing".
I understand the arguement that there is no reason to bolt 5.9 and lower because there are enough features usually on said routes to place gear. What about those who are new and don't have gear?
Some of these "kids" don't have an experienced, full rack owning mentor to learn from; so they read, take courses, practice in the gym before going outside. Now what do they find when they get out there? YOU NEED A FULL RACK OR BE ABLE TO CLIMB 5.11'S IN ORDER TO CLIMB ANYTHING OTHER THAN TOP ROPE.

In conclusion: I will NOT be bolting anything.
As well, Anonymous's posting is anything but the usual "East-Coast" hospitality that I've grown to love (and will dearly miss in January). This "old" mentality of "I've-been-around-forever-and-these-new-kids-are-wrecking-everything" has to go! It does not foster a positive, progressive climbing community. If you see something you don't like, get up from behind your Anonymous keyboard and do something about it. Become a mentor or post constructive comments! We have nothing but the utmost respect for people that come up to us and offer some words-of-advice from their bag of experiences. Especially when it concerns safety and the sport we love so much!

Craig

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Steve (Steve Punshen):

At first I wondered if this post was a wind-up, but I guess it's a consequence of the current vogue to confuse "rock climbing" with "gym climbing". Becoming a rock climber involves a long and arduous apprenticeship to which prancing about inside a gym unfortunately contributes nothing. Along the way, on trips out to the real crags, the would-be climber will learn from his more experienced companions about the complex and often unwritten code of climbing. Underpinning this code is the metaphorical 'First Commandment' which states that the climber shall in no way alter an existing rock climb to make it less challenging e.g. by chipping holds, chiselling gear placements, or, as we are in N. America and not Britain, placing bolts on climbs that have been done without. Such a suggestion on a UK chat group would already have resulted in several death threats. The least to expect is that a new offending bolt will be removed. More often, as seen in various areas with a long climbing history e.g. Colorado, California, putting a bolt in a trad route has been regarded as the first shot in a war demanding retaliation.
Crags are not the outdoor equivalent to indoor climbing walls. Leave the drill at home. If you can't climb a route onsight in good style then top rope it if you wish, from natural anchors if necessary, but don't kid yourself you have "climbed it".
Stokedsean was much more eloquent in his reply!
Cheers
Steve

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waterat (Allen W.):

Aye then,
Was wondering when Stevo would chuck in his tuppence worth...well said too...I agree. He hit it on the head with the 'apprenticship' bit, which is exactly the thing that the gyms have suppressed lately. To become a decent, well-rounded and experienced climber, one has to get out on proper rock and start on lower grades and work up. You can never replace the feeling of that first proper lead, placing your own gear, and it would be a shame for an aspiring climber to forego that pleasure.
I also agree with Chris Eager, for a change (ha ha), where he says that climbing should not be viewed purely as a sport like hockey or whatever, it is a bit more than that, and it is really only the long apprenticeship going out on the crags and working up the grades, learning the craft as it were, that one realises this. For many of us, climbing is part of our foundations, the ethics and philosophy of it are translated though all aspects of our life. Many of us are dismayed, shocked and angered by some of the suggestions put forth here.
On a more basic level, and to be very blunt, yes...if you can't climb a route in the style it was originally done, then bog off and do something else, to retro-bolt etc to make it 'safer' is just not on, and anyone who regards themselves as a climber ought to find this glaringly obvious. If you don't, then you are just dabbling.
Right, I'll shut up now.
Slainte.....

climb now...work later...

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Tracstarr (AKA Keath):

wow, all of a sudden things seem to be getting nasty towards me, for no reason. i can't ask a question to something i don't know?

and as far as being a 'hot-shot' , wtf does that come from? by no means am i a hot-shot. i'm not out there braging about i can climb this or i can climb that or screw you woosies cuz i just onsighted that. give me a break!

and 'kids', who are you fooling? and 'real' respect, by who's definition? yours? I have respect for climbing and also the rocks i climb on, that's why I ask these questions about bolting. but at the same time, sure, i might not totally agree 100% with everything said, and you sure don't agree with what i say. that's fine, i don't care. but not one single person is the ol' high and mighty who spits out the law of climbing.

but at the same time, i'm not going to go alter any routes like you obviously think i'm going to. I was/am only curious as to why things get bolted/not bolted and who decideds on it. i've got a good answer but it seems everyone is taking offence to the question.

and also, to steve, why the comment "it's a consequence of the current vogue to confuse "rock climbing" with "gym climbing".? i've got nothing confused here at all. i'm talking about rock climbing, and in the end, my safty on the rock. and as far as it being about apprenticeships, sure, everything i've learned so far is from someone else who knows more then me, and i love to learn, espically about what i don't know, again, hence my original post. but i don't think it's far to say that i should be out there taking the word of some all mighty god of climbing as the way i should do things all the time. however, i am willing to learn from someone and would love that opportunity, but i don't know anyone willing to do so, so where do i start? here, asking questiongs about bolting practices. then for no friggin reason people start throwing rocks at me and my character in responce. i don't get it. what gives? in then end i've got my answer to my original post.

thanks to those that gave good opinions and comments and didn't bash me for the question. appreciated. these are the type of climbers i would love to learn from if given the oportunity.

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granite_girl (Rebecca Lewis):

don't get so worried about some of the mud slinging that may go on on the internet, especially if the person who is doing the slinging is posting anonymously.

personally I'm a BB junky on the internet, and I've seen the subject many times on boards like rockclimbing.com. These are certainly the most well thought posts I've seen on a board about bolting yet.

To Craggie Craig - one thing that I did a bunch of this summer to get into trad climbing is leading while on toprope. It was great, me and my partner both had all passive gear + the two cams I have, and if we couldn't get a peice in we could rest on the top rope or run it out safely. Just run another rope on your harness to clip with. I've played on sport before that, I didn't find it preped me for trad much.

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c.eager (Chris Eager):

Yeah, for sure mock leads are great for practising, that goes for Ice Climbing as well.

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instantninja:

What the hell are you talking about? I just got myself a hilti for my b-day and tomorrow I'm off to go bolt everything in sight. Up yours and im out

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The Mit (AKA Sean Kelly):

O.k So here it is I'm calling all you guys out. Just kidding. I will step up if you guys want. I think I know where some moderate sport routes will go, if you guys (Craig, jumplike_tracstar, and tracstar) want I will offer to take you out and show you how to develop a route. I think its good to know the amount of work goes into a route and why some people feel like they have ownership over the routes they developed. Next weekend good? Email or call me.

Sean K (mitt)

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no mullet here:

I think I know what this guy/girl is getting at. As a climber form NS who has climbed in Ontario, the Rockies and Interior BC, I learned to climb lead first on Sport routes. Like many people, I found that sport climbing was the best way to learn to lead climb and transfer into trad. Then I came back to NS to climb and found that there are really no places to sport climb. I know there are places, but the really great places are either far drive from the city, need a boat or isn't the best rock.

What I found about NS climbing is that there is very little way for people to get into the sport. Without sport climbing you are either climbing top rope or you need to spend a grand on trad gear and climb lower grades for a while. I know that the rock is way different than it is in the western part of the country, but there are many places that I have climbed (Thunder Bay, Lake Louise and Revelstoke) that are excellent trad places and have excellent sport too. Having sport and trad makes for a better climbing community, growth of the sport, better climbers and climbers pushing their limits and personal goals (which isn't that the reason we love this sport?)

Where was I? Oh ya, seems to me that limiting the sport climbing is an elitist thing to do. Comes across as saying that trad is better and if you can't climb the grads....not welcomed! I know this may be coming across as a harsh email and I can feel the blood rushing in a few of you, but this is how I feel and isn't that the reason we have this disscussion page?

In my opinion (yes and who am I?) I think this province needs to establish a sport climbing area that is accessable to the majority of climbers and has a wide range of skill types. This will promote the sport in a positive and growth-growing fashion (not too sure if thats a word)

Thats my two cents.....and no, please don't go and bolt over other lines, that just bad karma!

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dpg:

I hope the topic here is placing bolts where traditional protection is "sketchy" or very runout. The reason there are not allot of sport routes in Nova Scotia is because of the nature of the rock. If we had sandstone or limestone or schist there would no doubt be more sport climbs. You cant just make sport climbs where they don't exist.

I hope Im wrong in thinking that some people feel the need to bolt routes which follow a crack system suitable for placing trad gear. This would without out a doubt be an embarrassment to NS rock climbing.

Climbing a trad route with bolts is not sport climbing, its clipping bolts when you dont have too, and Id have to say the majority of any climbing community would find that completely unmotivating.

Im not saying Gritstone style is always the way to go, Im not even a trad climber, but lets be sensible.
Rumney is not that far away!

dpg

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c.eager (Chris Eager):

Or Trout and Sandy Cove. Quality sport routes down that way and there's plenty of room for development at Sandy Cove. Makes a awesome two day trip, and the basalt is a nice change from climbing on granite.

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waterat (Allen W.):

Well said, that man.....

climb now...work later...

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seantherien (Sean Therien):

O how I love the old bolt or not to be, trad rulz, gym climbing is for xxxx, what I say goes debate.... Lets not kid ourselves there are a lot of bolted routes in the UK so they are not as "pure" as they like to make themselves out to be. As far as altering the rock goes or ground up purity of ascent I know that Juan was not the only thing causing blocks to come flying off the Arches at First Face. And I seem to recall seeing a certain trad climber jummaring up mainface busting off and bending back branches on some rather nice trees. So remember when your standing on your soapbox preaching "the way" that NO ONE IS INNOCENT.
That being said I must confess to being guilty of sketchy bolt placements at Sorrows end. I guess it depends on your view of sketchy...Big foot motel and a undone project I bolted both go straight up over a old trad line. Without consulting the person who did the FA of the trad line I went ahead and bolted both routes. This caused me to nearly lose one of my best friends. The end result was worth it though as Big foot is an amazing route and the project will also be worthy.(its a open project by the way) Also the rock pollution that you see on the way down the slab into Sorrows is a result of my over enthusiasm to bolt and one of my biggest reqrets.
So to answer one of the questions of the origial post Who decides when and where bolts go? The people who own the drills do. If you own a drill and want to place a bolt you can, there is nothing stopping you....except yourself. I would recomend the Bosch
Anhialator(sp) it is the drill I own and CNS owns and works really well. Make sure you use stainless steel 3/8 bolts, because of the granite they dont have to be super long ones. Once you have found a line that you want to bolt here are the steps you need to follow.

1.Get a anchor in at the top I like to use fixe bolt/ring combo very nice to lower off of.
2.Rap the route looking for good cliping stances. Scrubbing as you go figuring out some possible sequences.
3.Rap route again to install bolts. I can get a bolt in in just under 5 mins. a. Use a hammer to smooth out the area where you want the bolt, the hanger must sit flush with the rock flatten out crystals with claw of hammer. b.Have depth gauge on drill set to just a little longer than bolt length and start drilling! Do not let the bit wiggle to much or your hole will be to wide and bolt may come out.(bad) c. Once hole is drilled blow out all dust and I mean all dust. d. Insert bolt (with hanger already on) into hole and start pounding with hammer. You have to be really careful to bang on the bolt so it goes straight in. e. Once bolt is all the way in tighten it up till the vein in your forearm bulges(This is a good torque indicator) Thats it you just installed a bolt. Congrats!!
4.Once route is bolted go for the redpoint burn, you cant really say you onsighted it because you just rapped it checking it out.

If you are not sure whether to place a bolt on your new line because you think mabye it could take gear. I have found that the best thing is to PLACE THE BOLT. If your gonna bother putting 6 bolts on a route you might as well place 7. The decision as to whether its a sport route or trad route was made the moment you put in the first bolt. Mixed routes are the result of wafflers who are afraid of the flack that thier gonna take from putting a bolt near someplace that gear "might" go in. Capt Freedoms 5 Min workout at the Scapper classic example it has 1 bolt but really would be way better off as a sport route and would probably see more ascents. Hesitation Breeds Chaos at Sorrows...how many strong climbers have had to top rope this thing because it has no bolts.Sure the gear is "there" but really?

So I will finish with a few more words because I am sure most people have stopped reading by now.
At the New River Gorge in West Virginia there are over 2500 routes mostly sport. One area known as Bubba city had many routes there that were first done ages ago, like late 80's. Most of the really good lines at Bubba were trad or mixed. Bout 3 years ago a local went in and bolted a great deal of the old lines. People were xxxxED...at first. Then they realized that many of these climbs had not seen ascents in like 10 years because people just didnt want to do them on gear. Now Bubba City is one of the most popular areas at the New.
In France it is not uncommon to find fully bolted cracks. Im talking full on crack climbing but your clipping bolts. Is this right is it wrong? I know one thing the majority of the worlds strongest climbers come from France.
Finally, let me tell you about my friend Chris Lee. A very strong climber I climbed with in early 90's from Ottawa. On a trip to the New Chris decided to get on a trad route that had been retro bolted. Having very strong convictions Chris opted to not clip any of the bolts. Upon botching the crux Chris decked and shattered his ankle, a year later he sent. Remember just because the bolts are there does not mean you have to clip them, put your money where your mouth is and do the route as the first ascensionist did if it is that important to you. But it is my feeling that our progression as climbers will stagnate if we as a community let ourselves be mired down by old school thinking and elitist philosophies.
Holy crap I havn't written this much since university I gotta go.I welcome comments, mabye I will even make Teths special feature section.
Sean.

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Steve (Steve Punshen):

My My, nothing like a good "to bolt or not to bolt" debate for chat room sport. Always someone willing to ratchet up the stakes.
If youre going to have a go at me Sean, why don't you at least have the guts to say my name. Yes I did pull off an extremely loose large block weighing about three hundred pounds off the Arches for concern over peoples safety. Ok I won't bother next time, I'll leave the big loosers alone to fall off with someone hanging off them. And yes I recall snapping off some thin dead branches that were brushing against the rock on a route that later became Solar Wind (your best friendled that one by the way), If thats the worst you can dig up on me you are pretty much scraping the xxxxing barrel, bonny lad. Do those things compare to putting two bolts in 5.6 climbing on an established trad route at Sorrows as you did? I took two Brit lads up there a couple of years ago and we soloed up Rustle Never Sleeps, they couldn't believe bolts placed in such easy ground. Not only that, but the top too. Bolts inches away from perfect nut or cam placements. You will be wanting to build a roof over the place next to make it into an indoor climbing wall. That place is xxxxed up, bolt ladders everywhere. And you are now saying that Brits are also tossers cos there are bolts here too? Well try taking your Bosch to Northumberland or the Lake District, my home patch. You would be fleeing back in terror from the enraged crowd drawing straws to see who gets to break yer legs. Aye and Hesitation Breeds Chaos was the work of a good Northumberland lad I am told. A lot better than me, but then I am only a mediocre climber compared to the hundreds in the UK who can onsight trad 5.12, a lot better than you or I will ever attain.
Its pretty obvious we can argue for years about the merits or otherwise of bolts vs trad, and though you may do your best to try and paint me as a hypocrit or dinosaur locked in the past, my views are still representative of a large percentage of climbers in the Uk and I am refreshed to find, over here too. So I would strongly recommend you keep your drill away from Hesitation and the few other bold trad routes that we are lucky enought to have.
Steve

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seantherien (Sean Therien):

Excellent reply Steve, I agree with all you said with one exception. "Large numbers of climbers in UK and refreashingly here also" who are in favour of dangerous runout trad routes. I think that you would find that the number of people here(Nova Scotia) would rather have climbs that they can lead without fearing for thier lives on. If there is a large number of climbers who are in favour of hard poorly protected trad lines why are there so many trad routes around here that have seen few if any repeat ascents? I think that it is far more likely that you could count on 1 hand the number of local climbers who prefer these types of routes. Dont get me wrong I have loads of respect for the sick routes that you and Cassidy have established. I just dont have respect for someone who tries to force thier way on others. You are not a spokesperson for the NS climbing community. Nor is the british ethic the ONLY ethic out there. Climbing is a global activity with many different ethics. There is rarely a right and a wrong. Unless you have been to many areas around the world and tried ALL styles of climbing the only ethic one will know is their own and to try and force that ethic on a whole community is wrong. If your Northumberland pull down possee moves to Halifax and starts taking care of business then the local ethic will lean towards bold trad lines untill then...expect to see bolts continue to sprout like beautiful little flowers. As far as putting bolts on routes like Hesitation well I wouldnt go near that one with a ten foot pole....or a 5'9 brit.
Cheers Sean

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waterat (Allen W.):

Here's one then....how about some of the troops head out, climb a bolted line but ignore the bolts, place a few small nuts or whatever, and then chop the bolts out, because after all, it's ok to alter a route if you want to, never mind what effort the first ascensionist went to, matters not a jot.....or does it ?

climb now...work later...

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Tracstarr (AKA Keath):

no one is doubting the efforts that may hove gone into that FA. And that effort might well exceed anyones idea. But, their effort is not (should not be) a measure of what effort the next person will have to put into the climb, for some it will be easier and some it will be harder, whatever form of protection you choose. and if done correctly, placing bolts should NEVER alter the route or how it is climbed (other than the fact you will need to position yourself for that gear placement or clip) the climbing of that route, they should only alter the way one protects themself. I don't think it's about altering anything directly related to a route except the look. If you want to honour that FA'er then climb as they did. technically the climb is the same no matter what for of protection is used, it's only the fear factor that's changed according to your comfort of the protection style.... to me, right now, trad scares the crap out of me, but then again, i haven't learned much about trad.... but always willing....

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The Mit (AKA Sean Kelly):

Sean I have to say to support the bolting of an established route or to bolt an obvious crack is as much forcing sport climbing on people as the "Trad only" beliefs do. I think that for most there is a grey area that falls in the middle of these opposing thoughts. As someone who enjoys both sport climbing and trad I think they both have their place, but to adopt a bolt anything attitude is as short sighted as the death runout argument. In this area there is alot of rock and few climbers, I believe there is room for us all. Personal attacks (from both sides) only detract from the debate and drag us all down (one day I will take my own advice:).

To use European examples are not the answer, there are several routes in Spain with plastic holds bolted on; and alot of strong climbers come out of Spain. I don't buy that if we bolt more liberally that we will have stronger climbers. When was the last repeat of The lost boys or mea culpa, or gargoyle all hard sport climbs I submit that there are only a handful of people who can climb the hard trad routes and there are only a handful of people who can climb the hard sport routes. One is not directly related to the other.

Once again just my thoughts on the subject, take'em or leave'em.

Mitt (AKA Sean K)
Getting down from soapbox shaking head in disbelief.

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dpg:

I just have to say Ive been too many well established crags across the states and you’d be hard pressed to find any bolted crack routes. If you did there wouldn’t be anyone climbing it. Maybe part of the reason is because there'd be so many pure sport climbs around, but has anyone ever heard of that classic well bolted crack climb at ...?!

As far as bolting a good route goes, don’t forget that stick clipping leaves more options when thinking of where to place that first bolt, especially on rappel.

dpg

PS
Is it just me or are there some pansies around here.
oops
Seriously I didn't mean that.

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seantherien (Sean Therien):

Just to clarify...
I never said that I support a bolt anything policy.
Rock Wars 5.9 red river gorge ....bolted crack
Sweet Pain 5.12 Red rocks ...bolted crack
Discombobulated 5.11 New River...face climb to bolted crack
Just a few classic routes at classic areas that are bolted that could take gear.
Gargoyle, Lost Boyz, Mea Culpa, Big Foot Motel, Magistar Lundi, Porn on the Cob, Shaudenfrueda,Deperado The list goes on and on of SPORT ROUTES around here that have not seen repeats or even second ascents.Why? Hell I even bolted A Quick one .10c/dish at Columbus just so folks new to leading could lead a route outdoors that wasnt super long and involved and I know of only one person to have done(ahem...) it. Routes that are fully bolted from 10a to hard 12 await sends. There is tons of sport climbing around here. If you can boulder V5 then you should be able to lead 5.11 at least. I blame it on the bouldering really. It is much easier to send a hard boulder problem then it is to send a hard route(sport or trad)
And once again I say that just because a route has a bolt(s) on it you do NOT have to clip them. There fore you can climb the route in traditional style and nothing is being forced upon you. However if there are no bolts then something is definitly being forced upon you.
So come on people lets stop all this pebble wrestling and get some air under our feet. There are few weeks left of good roped climbing, lets see who can do what with whats left of the season. Ill see everyone on the rock.
Cheers Sean.

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waterat (Allen W.):

Fair enough, if you are climbing an existing bolted line you can miss out as many clips as you feel like....however, under no situation should an existing line with no bolts ever be retro-bolted, I'd be the first in line to chop them, or maybe Stevo would, but anyway, even a new line with decent cracks or other natural protection should be left unbolted, and climbed in the traditional style if gear can be placed...if it is a bit bold then so be it, if you want to play safe all the time then stick to the gyms.


climb now...work later...

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09Man (Andrew _________):

I am still very new to climbing, and discussions like this remind me just how new. Having read the above, I find myself thinking the following: how can additional safety be argued? and if one is against bolting, why not just choose not to use them?

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waterat (Allen W.):

You seem to miss the point of the whole argument there. To lead a route, placing your own gear, is the most enjoyable way to climb, I think. To just clip bolts is less of an experience. If a blank wall with zero protectable weaknesses is climbed with the use of bolts as protection, then fair enough, but to bung in bolts alongside decent natural pro is just plain silly.
Another point, all the 'pro-bolt brigade' seem to miss, is that you all accept the bolts as somehow being undeniably bombproof, when in fact you don't really have a clue how good it actually is, do you ?
Given the choice between a 5 year old bolt of unknown quality or a #5 wallnut I can see is bomber gear, well, it's a bit obvious I think...
Give it up people...just accept the fact that placing gear is the way to go, unless there is no alternative.


climb now...work later...

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09Man (Andrew _________):

There is no doubt that bolt placements can be down right sketchy, but to a degree there will be some uncertainty in any method, bolt or natural protection. Regardless, I believe that you may have missed the point to my question, if a route has good protection and bolts, can't the climber choose to ignore the bolts and use their gear or if they so choose, sport climb?

Does simply seeing bolt placement really make people that angry? And if so, is it the principal of seeing the bolt what makes them so, or is it the actual environmental presence?

Keep in mind waterat, that I freely admit that I am new to climbing, and I do not yet have an opinion as to what is right or wrong. I jumped in here to ask a few questions to generate that opinion.

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scooter (Scott R.)

i think you might have missed the point a bit too
i dont think people want to place bolts because they think they are bomb proof, they want to place bolts to get into the sport climbing scene, because they want to try it , maybe people like myself dont want to go out and buy 70$ cams to do some trad, but i sure do want to get into sport climbing. I dont want to trad, i wanna sport climb so whats the big deal?
oh, and placing gear "the most enjoyable way to climb???" maybe for you
why all the ragging on sport climbers

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Steve (Steve Punshen):

OK I've moved away from the pulpit now! No, it's hard for me not to preach the "one true religion", call me a trad fundamentalist if you like. Of course there is room for everyone to do their stuff here with a little consideration from all sides.
You are dead right Sean, the main thing is to keep climbing to the bitter end, which for me is about the beginning of December. I have three lines at Main Face to do which are slipping away with this crappy weather.
I sometimes worry a little about the future of trad here, probably needlessly. I guess for someone starting climbing, trad seems daunting compared to sport. All that gear to buy, learning to place it, worrying about security etc, etc. Anyone who feels competent on boulders and sport but who really wants to get into trad is most welcome to come out with me and the guys, to ease into it. I have loads of gear even if it is all 25 years old! (only partly joking)
Cheers
Steve

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The Teth (Teth Cleveland):

Some scattered thoughts:

- Pansies are a noble flower.

- The ease of trad gear placements in cracks is the only reason I can see to sacrifice that much skin off the back of your hands.

- Loose rocks make me nervous.

- If the run-out will kill you, why place gear?

- Solo enough climbs and you will eventual die, even at 5.6. You just never know when a perfectly good looking hold will peal off.

- If you have the skill and the gear to set a top-rope anchor with natural protection, why would you be top-roping? Conversely, if someone is a top-roper, how often do they have the skill and the gear to set anchors on natural protection?

- I am in favor of bolted top-rope anchors. They make it easier to clean my gear, since I have no one to second for me.

- Having people top-rope a bold line should be good for the ascensionist’s ego. When they know the route, they will really be impressed that you lead it!

- Non climbers can only see hangers when trad climbers stand and point.

- After buying my rack the student loan office changed its mind and wanted the money back.

- After buying my rack I could not afford crampons.

- If the aim is to put up a rout that no-one will repeat, why not reseed the lichen once you have the first accent?

- If the first assent of a route was sport, and the bolts have since become unsafe, rebolting the route seems to be the only way to be true to the tradition of the route.

- Eagles Nest, Trout Cove, and Sandy Cove all have strong sport climbing traditions. If you are tired of the rock at Eagles Nest, the chance to climb on basalt is definitely worth the trip to Digby County.


The Teth

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sealevel (Chris _______):

We need more climbing in Nova Scotia, more sport, more trad, more mixed, more tr, more more more. Did I mention more?
Just because easy sport climbs are under represented here is not a very good reason to change a trad line into a sport line. If someoneone is motivated to go and install some bolts, just move left or right 20 ft and bolt your own line. Get your name in the book, bolt it the way you want, and add to the variety we all can benifit from.

The longer one does this sport the more one can appreciate the history. Finding old pitons in the mountains reminds me how the first climbers did all this with nailed boots, wool sweaaters, hip belays, in the middle of a snowstorm, with broken glasses, and 80 lbs of school books in their rucksacks, and they liked it.

Climbing is dangerous. If you can't deal with this fact you should look for a different hobby. Bouldering is risky, so you buy a pad and have your friends spot you, you don't pave the landings. If you want to climb cracks you can top rope them or learn to climb trad. If you want to sport climb you can climb the sport that is here, you can add to the sport that is here or you can travel to other areas and climb there.

Just my 2 cents.


chris.

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Tracstarr (Keath):

so if i solo something no one should try and climb it otherwise right if i'm the FA'er? hmmmmm, not likley.

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Fred Berube (Fred Berube):

Just an out of province opinion.

I'm not getting into the whole bolt or not bolt thing I just wanted to point out:

Why have you guys not tapped out Sandy Cove? It's stellar. And it has the solutions to all the problems you have been talking about.

I've been there while visiting in Digby and let me tell you, I was impressed. There's tons of potential for supper nice sport routes on quality basalt. It's completely virgin rock aside from those one time only trad routes. I'd be there myself with the old BOSCH but I'm not about to step onto someone else's turff for reasons that have all been pointed out in this ongoing discussion.

Keep in mind that the top is a big rock outcrop with little or no way of placing natural anchors. I think bolt anchors would be a good start for the crag. Hey! I'd be ready to invest a little for the one time a year I do visit. Let me know how things turn out.

"We need more sport climbing in NS" It's there waiting, just go get it.

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peter (Peter McVey):

Fred:

I am not writing to bash your post but have some comments:

There are top anchors, if you use long slings and a redirect. I have top roped around the buttress that has the existing sport routes.

Since there is no need to rap, perhaps any top anchors could be put over the edge and down the face a few feet. The cliff is private property, and the hike to the top a common thing for locals and visitors to do, so I wouldn't go hog wild with lots of visible metal.

I know people in the community (family of a friend), and wouldn't call the climbs one time only. They are just too far from Halifax for some. I have done day trips there but usually climb over a weekend. I rarely go to Sandy Cove without at least going to the top for the view, and have climbed there several times. It is a great place in many respects.

I agree with you that there are dozens and dozens of lines there. Don't be shy about putting them up. The initial routes were put up by a combination of Digby-New Brunswick climbers, I believe, so go for it. It is an untapped area. We put up the four most obvious easy/moderate trad lines in one day a few years ago.

Gulliver's Head, closer to Digby, has even more potential, if you overlook the first ten feet and clean some loose rock.

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jonathan (Jonathan Graem):

Hey Fred, I agree with Pete. Put up routes to your hearts content. I don't think provincial boudries make much difference in climbing.
Todd and I are going to Welsford... I think soon. We'll see you Saturday night. Party Yeah!

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arugula (Sean Cassidy):

Sorry for such a belated (and long-winded) response, but I wanted to add a comment to tracstarr's original question and 09Man's question wrt why a climber can't choose to ignore bolts and use gear if they choose (if a crack climb is bolted). It seems to be a perfectly reasonable question to ask and one which probably a lot of people just getting into climbing (particularly coming out of a gym environment) would ask.

First of all, without being insulting, I think that gym climbing is only remotely related to "real climbing." Therefore, whatever a person's expectations might be upon venturing out from the gym, they should be suspended for awhile until they acclimatize themselves to the culture of climbing outside. Like it or not, part of that culture involves risk. As many have commented on, a person's expectation to be "safe" all the time while climbing outside is unreasonable, and is a product of conditioning in our "normal pedestrian life" where we like to sue each other if our coffee is too hot! On the flipside I can tell you that - despite it's bad rap - "trad climbing" is way way safer than most people on this board would believe - it's just a matter of learning the craft.
I'll avoid the main debate about bolts by simply stating that bolts are an essential part of climbing in North America and in Nova Scotia. Similarly, gear-protected routes are an essential part of climbing in North America and in Nova Scotia. All that is needed is some judgement and respect in the use of bolts and the two styles can happily co-exist.

Personally, I enjoy both styles (sport and trad) immensely. To me they are different but related art forms. And that is the crux: they are distinct ART FORMS and therefore the aesthetics (visual, physical and conceptual) of a route are fundamental to the nature of its form and style. Therefore, the suggestion that sport and trad climbing can be "happily combined" by simply bolting a crack line is received negatively by much of the climbing community (or at the very least "trad climbers" - whoever they are!). Imagine the opposite scenario: drilling and blasting small pockets and cracks in a sport climb to permit trad climbers to "share" the route - pretty ridiculous huh?!

For some, the importance of each art form is so great, that the two styles are mutually exclusive. For example, one of my friends is appalled at the idea of installing even one bolt on a route (even in a long runout blank section of rock) and would sooner jump off the cliff than climb a route with such a bolt. Another friend has suggested that if you put one bolt on a route, you might as well put 6 or 7 on it. I think both approaches are generally too extreme. As with other art forms (music, painting, whatever), there is inevitably some co-mingling of ideas and approaches: hence, routes with mixed protection. All of this really boils down to the fact that route development is a very, very grey area, and the hard decisions of whether a route should be protected with gear, bolts, or a mixture of the two, falls to the route developer. In my opinion, route developers deserve a certain amount of latitude in this regard - so long as they maintain a healthy amount of respect for the existing routes and styles of a particular crag, and for the routes that will potentially exist there in the future.

Sean C.

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Webslinger (Chris Hayes):

Man you go away for two weeks and the flood gates open. I just sat down a read all of these in a row. I was wondering when the Cassinator would take a crack. No offense but that was much better than I thought. In fact it was excellent.

I know pretty much everyone who is posting on the issue, and I trust their intentions. I was taking notes on what to say - Cassidy said most of it but I would add this.

Who am I?
I have been climbing for about 8 years now and climbed over 300 routes. At heart I am a top rope climber. I said this to people when I first started, "The only reason I will learn to trad is to climb stuff that I can't get to the top to set up a rope." So I eventually climbed enough routes that I wanted something higher, so I got some gear to get ready for multi pitch. I climbed the same routes over again on trad, working up again - I never lead anything I didn't know I could climb or something I had climbed 7 times on TR - if that ain't safe I don't know what is. At that time I got the development bug. I wanted my name in print. The rule is if you don't lead it, you don't name it. So I was forced through vanity (or some emotion like that) to lead some more. So I lead some new routes (nothing over a 10c.) It still isn't my favorite but it has its place for me.

Here is the suprising part. In all my climbs I have only ever climbed 1 that is "One" outdoor sport route. Mr. Miagi at Columbus Wall. It was a project I found and climbed on top rope, thought it was cool and wanted to get it in the guide book for others to try, so I bolted and lead it. Sport climbing isn't a transition, its an entire entitiy of its own, as Cassidy said. Some call Bouldering or indoor climbing, training for outdoors. But I think they are all different sports, and all need routes.
Why don't I Sport Climb.
Well it certainly isn't some ill contempt or elitist attitude, just preference based on the following rationale. For the most part outdoor pursuits are aiming toward No-Trace Use. For me (And I mean my values) that means use trad gear for Top ropes or placements first, natural protection (sling trees - chalk stones) second and bolting/anchors third. Remember once a bolt is placed, it is there for good. Do I mind it, no check. If I don't want the risk teh Lead but still want to push my climbing ability I Top Rope it.

Why are there very few mid grade Sport Routes
Generally the rule of thumb in NS has been if you can place gear, don't bolt. Unfortunately because of the geology of Nova Scotia there is a range of about 5.8 - 5.10b that is hard to find for sport development. It is common for routes in that range to have obvious cracks. That is where Sandy Cove comes in - the rock is different which to more sport options. When I found the Medicine Wall and The Zoo, the first thing the Mitt asked me was " Are there any low grade sport development oportunities? " He saw the gap but for the most part the areas were crack filled. We need to find more development opportunities. I don't think we should make them where they are not. Therien has pulled some awesome Sport routes out of thin air, and Steve P.Cassidy has cracked some Trad routes that have gone unnoticed for decades. Thanks goes to these guys for working hard at giving us options. Whatever people do don't take for granted the time, effort and risk involved in finding and putting these lines up for us. So stop and think before you you add a couple of bolts becuase you don't feel safe. (This is my one sarcastic comment.) Maybe we could hang a full time port-a-ledge before the crux of Ghost Dance so that we can take a rest from being pumped, that would be safer.

Is Climbing About Being Safe? (Serious Part)
As Cassidy said climbing has inherent risks. We use equipment to minimize risks. I am sure Free Soloists look at other climbers and say "Blah." how much do you want to protect yourself, why not wear a bubble suit. You have to remember that your comfort level should not neccesarily dictate development. When it comes to the question - To Bolt or Not To Bolt - you must also think of this the internal Sporting debate. "How often do you put bolts." What is safe and what is too much. A bolt every 3 feet may be safer than every 6. Bolting is an art in itself. I thank Sean for the online briefing about how to bolt. But I am sure he will agree there is something else to it. Hangers have to flow right. They have to fit with the rests, cruxes and so on. Unforunately route development is best mentored and when I am not building ahouse I would gladly give more time to new comers. Back to the above debate "When is it enough and when is it too much? (Here comes my only Trad plug) At least when Trad leading you can sew it up every foot and a half if your scared to xxxx, without irrevocably drilling 20 holes in the face. If safety is a concern top roping is always the easiest and I haven't found a route yet that I could TR. If you bolted every 3 feet I can assure you in 2 years you'll be skipping every second bolt because it is a waste of your time and you will have little need. they may even get in you way. If you bolted next to a crack that easily takes a .5 cam eventually you will probably wish you had have left your Bosche drill home that day.

That being said some lines are natural for sport - like that 10a in the middle of Sorrow's - that thing is great (Although I have only TR it). Unforunately, mid range sport routes are more rare that mid range cracks. Other places offer a greater frequencey of ledges and pockets which seem to be more typical on sport routes.

How could a die hard Top Roper change his view on bolting.
If I owned a drill when I first started climbing, you would be tripping over bolts at the top of the crag, and I would be embarrased and regretful. I needed to take time to learn about the sport the climbing ethics, aesthetics and evironmental ethics. I didn't need them, I just had less to choose from had to be more creative and carry a big pack with webbing. But there is a little les rock pollution.

Tracstarr - I applaude you for asking the question. As for some of the harsh responses, I need to let the new comers to the sport or those transitioning from indoors to out, this debate has existed in this community and resurfaces every couple of years when new climbers become a part of the community. I had this same talk with Arugula fours years ago. For the veterens I am sure they are wondering "Do we have to talk about this again, I thought we went over that already." The answer is, "Yes." So the community can grow. We had the same debate at a CNS meeting in August so welcome to the club.

Chris Hayes
Prez (Cassidy - If you want the job you can have it, the masses are calling.)

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[The Mitt]

Stokedsean is not Sean K.

Mitt
AKA Sean K

[The Mitt]

That was a good read. Where did you get that? I thought the old board was gone. I would like to see some of the old threads but have not been able to find them.

Mitt

[The Teth]

I copied it all into a wordPerfect document at the time and it has been siting on my computer ever since. Since I identified you correctly as Sean Kelly, I suspect that Stokedsean was another Sean with a last name starting with “K”. I am not sure where I got his last initial from, but I suspect I got that info from another of his posts at the time. I think that Stokedsean may have only been on the seen here briefly. Stoked...correct me if you are still here.

Teth