Climbing wall in Moncton?

[thicks]

So I am wondering if anyone has looked into getting a climbing wall/club going in Moncton yet? Has anyone looked into this and if so how. I mean commercial club, nonprofit club. Affiliated with schools or possibly get some support from the city(someone is paying to build skate parks, can we get in on this money?)

The city is large enough now that I find it almost ridiculous that it doesnt have a wall yet. Closest I have been able to find is there is a go-cart track by the Coliseum that is looking into building one but is having problems with insurance. Now I am not trying to be picky, and honestly if I was 8 and it was my birthday this place might be the best wall ever. But since I am not looking forward to climbing beside loud exhaust pumping go-carts consistently, well I am not sure that it would fill the gap.
any ideas? any previous tries?
T

[mathieu]

A friend tried and tried about 5-7 years ago. Aparently he had a good business plans with lots of different ideas but he concentrated on the university and they refused. SO you would need to do it for profit and in the marry times i don't think that would work. maybe approach other education institutions

[thicks]

Who was that matt? and do they still have that info like the business plan? I think it shouldnt be a commercial club if at all possible. And there are other schools, ABU(maybe), UNB does boast of a Moncton campus... but.... I think Tremble also used to have a wall in their gym, but i dont know if that has moved to the centenial park summer camp. There is also the chance to try to partner with the Y or BoysGirsl clubs or any other Non Profig org like that. That old YMCA is empty and they will NEVER sell that thing... And the City of Moncton might give money to registered clubs, assuming you have a certain membership and all that stuff, provide a service, bla bla.
anyway I am really just talking out loud but with the size of the city, there must be a way for it to work somehow, somewhere.

[mathieu]

Dan Doiron has tried with the University and the YMCA as they were building the new one. There used to be a climbing gym at the boys and girls club in lakeburn.

[thicks]

There used to be an old one in the gym in the Moncton Hospital, but they never really used it, more for kids to play on I think. Wonder what happened to all those holds...

[Pierre]

There used to be an old one in the gym in the Moncton Hospital, but they never really used it, more for kids to play on I think. Wonder what happened to all those holds...

I believe it's still there... atleast it was about 6 months ago

Closest I have been able to find is there is a go-cart track by the Coliseum that is looking into building one but is having problems with insurance

I peaked in there one day it looked like they were building a simple bouldering wall...

If Moncton had a climbing club - I'd join! I would even consider a climbing gym coop!

Only thing with Plastic holds that I know of, that one can access easliy is the Cent Park Woodie...

[thicks]

Ya that is just a small bouldering wall he has there, he still plans on a couple of vertical walls on the inside of that building. Warehouse type building with huge ceilings... but still. You can barely talk in there, let alone have a decent climbing night there I would think.

I dont even live in Moncton but i would join a climbing club/coop there. All my family is in moncton so that is part of why I would like to see the city get one.

Next question is how would you start moving with an idea like this and do we have enough people interested to try and pull it together. The club/coop would have to be organized, then find some support from the community in the form of money, space, old holds. A sign up sheet or interested persons list would probably help once it came time to look for some help/sponsorship....

Well there really are too many questions that are coming to mind to even bother listing them here; the only important one is are there people that would be interested in helping to do the leg work. I will sign my name down on the list, but i can only help so much from Fredericton. Any takers? The forum is a little low on the moncton crowd but....

[DanR]

Someone has been seriously thinking about this wall in moncton idea for a few months now. Haven't spoken to him for a bit, so I don't know where it's going? But he was making up a business plan, had spoken to several organizations, places, options... Location and insurance are the killers. It almost has to be incorporated with something bigger if it is to work.
Not sure if he's still at it, so I won't post any names!
There seems to be more and more climbers here in moncton, so you never know, it could work.

[martha]

Hey Dan,

I know who you speak of, and he had some meetings in early september that I think went well. But that is the last I have heard from him too. I remember he opted not to come to the Gunks with us because of these meetings!!!

Cara

[thicks]

Well I can understand the amount of time he must be putting into this type of thing and if he needs any help or support, well that is what this community is all about. If he needs any proof reading done, or just some people to brain storm with let him know this thread is here.

Has the idea of organizing the club as a non-profit org come up at all? That would allow for tax deductible donations from large business too. "Climb Moncton - keeping kids on the wall and off the streets" Sounds corny but who knows.....

[DeanO]

Hey everybody, the person that DanR was talking about would be me. I was over a DanR's last night and he made me aware of this topic on this site. It's very encouraging to see this topic posted.

Everything said is true. I'm working rather hard on getting a climbing gym together. Thursday just passed I had a positive break through. Although it's too early to say for sure, there is a possibility on getting what I think is a prime location. Through numerous phone calls and with lots of luck, I believe I have found the right people to make this dream of ours a reality.

I should receive word back from these people in a couple of weeks on weather or not this thing is a go. Regardless I will keep everyone posted on how things work out.

Meanwhile it would be nice to keep this topic open. I'd like to hear ideas from climbers of what we need to make this gym work. I also like the idea of getting people together for some brainstorming.

Dean

[mathieu]

Heres' one suggestion that could of gotten an owner more money today. GET A DISCOUNT RATE FOR KIDS. We wanted to bring my girlfriends nieces climbing today in S'toon but the drop in rate was 15$ so multiply that by 5 and its just too expensive.

[Andrew]

** warning, Andrew just had a thought run through his mind **

OKay, so what is the point of having food or service rates dropped for 'KIDS'. It seems most businesses allow kids to gain goods and services cheaper than adults.

I'm wondering if the reason is because parents want to go do somthing but have to bring their kids, or they want to but they can't really justify or afford the extra money for all their kids to come along too. Is this to entice parents to BRING their kids along so that the business gets more revenue even though they drop the price for the kids?
OR
Is it that people feel kids won't get as much out of the experience/service/food as the adults would, and so they drop the price for the kids proportionatly to loss of experience which the adults wouldn't experience at full price?

Maybe a combination of the two?

What about when I go to see a chick flick with my girlfriend which I know I will not enjoy the movie but of course will enjoy being with her and then later on she'll be greatfull for me coming along even though I didn't want to see the movie. In this case, I won't be getting as much out of the movie as her, so shouldn't I get a special rate? How about a "Boyfriend seeing a chick-flick movie" special discounted rate? I think that's fair. Kids shouldn't get all the discounts, esp. since they're not even earning the money that's being paid for them to enjoy the service/product which is being discounted. On the flip-side, what about the girlfriend who goes to see the movie the guy wants to see such as some Steven Segaul movie which she will hate but the guy will love. Shouldn't she get a discount?

On a totally different subject... Why is it that there are government or even private organizations fixated on helping those who have lost everything through disaster, death, or simply are homeless or destitute. These organizations feed and cloth, provide brand new houses and property free of charge to them and get them jobs that normally they couldn't get otherwise.... but there isn't much in place to help the normal regular every-day Jack and Jill who have gone to school but can't seem to find a job that pays enough to do anymore than simply barely sustain them? I think there should be a program in place called "Get 25yr old guys and girls out of their parents house and into their own and a good job matched with their skills and education that pays enough to live". That would help out a lot. Even the government will benefit. The more someone makes, the more they own and the more they buy == the more taxes they pay and the more moeny the gov't makes. It also benefits the community and local businesses and economy because they are dumping money into those businesses, etc.

That's my "thought" / 'Rant' of the morning. Now off to living in my fathers house (which is great) hoping to find a job which will sustain me... oh wait.. this isn't totally about me. HEY! I'm NOT selfish.

That was fun.

Heres' one suggestion that could of gotten an owner more money today. GET A DISCOUNT RATE FOR KIDS. We wanted to bring my girlfriends nieces climbing today in S'toon but the drop in rate was 15$ so multiply that by 5 and its just too expensive.

[Fred]

Andrew,

the government does have those "get the 25yr old guy out of his parents house" plans. It's called government loans and affordable educations through NBCC or privat institutions. Anyone who has graduated high school for more than 5 years is considered a mature student and can pretty much get accepted into any university or college and get government financial help. If all that doesn't help then perhaps those individuals aren't trying hard enough to make the best of the systems in place. There are tons of jobs out there. Tons!!! There's no excuse for not finding work in my opinion.

As for the kids. Their just kids man. Let em climb for cheap and eat cheap. Kids who come to UNB climb for a whole 15min and then start brushing holds or playing with a bucket of bolts. Is it realy worth charging them $15?

my 2 cents.

[dcentral]

Just remeber with kids and or kids rates depending on how you set up your belaying arrangements parents are more then will to leave their kids with you. Unless you want to be a babysitting service setup some rules before hand.

If parents don't know how to belay at the gym here, they have to bring their kids at predetermined times -- 4-6 tuesday and thursday and 10-12 on saturdays. It seems to work pretty well, a nice balance between kids and adults. They also offer a cheaper course for parents who want to belay for their kids.

Another good idea is having a power hour. The last hour and half is half price -- or cheaper then regualr price. Helps keep the gym busy till closing. No point in have one or two people in the gym before closing.

[DeanO]

Young people being probably the largest portion of the walls income, it is very important to pay very close attention to this part of the market. I'm glad it's the first real subject to come up.

Discount rates for younger members will have to be taken into consideration. As well as discounts for kids that bring their parents along with them for belay. I believe also that it's important to stay away from the baby-sitting scenario also. This might seem like a good idea until you factor in the cost of having extra staff. But who knows it might also cover itself?

The businessman in me says. People in the Moncton area are building big houses. Big houses mean big wages. Big wages means kids and extra money to send your kids on activities. Anyone check out the prices on hockey equipment lately.

This is the part were I don't sound so cold. I believe if I offer certain events or hours for kids at practically no cost. As well as discounts for children’s groups (scouts...etc....), this will be good for families that can't really afford the membership prices. This also acts as great advertisement.

Everyone please remember that no matter how bad something might sound. I mean, I don't what to exploit anyone fanatically. This is going to be the greatest thing possible for the community. But it also must make a profit in order to exist. Please excuse anything that doesn't sound right.

Please continue this topic......but can I get some ideas on construction also? Contractors? design? size? How much lead....toprope.....bouldering?

thanks

Dean

P.S.

I will be printing all of this off. Didn't realize this forum would be such a great resource.

And Fred. I will be in contact with you Cara and John shortly.

[Richard Eh!]

Any businessman worth his salt has to know that the kids of today are the market base of tomorrow. If you "hook 'em" on your sport early, they bring their friends and are the bulk of your future business. So, setting reduced rates to entice them or make it financially feasible for their parents is definitely a worthwhile investment !
Aside from that, their delight and enthusiasm is contagious and reminds us of the way we felt about climbing before it was about routes, grades, gear, blah, blah, blah.....

[martha]

You bet Dean.

I've got tons of ideas/info for you. I'm sure John and Fred do as well.

i'm in Newfoundland until next sunday, but the following weekend (5th/6th)you should come up and see us all.

Cara

[mathieu]

Start contacting gym teachers maybe they could bring their class or have a "school climbing club" then MonkeyTown will have good reason to be called that with all the youngins climbing 5.28 before they finish their terrible teens. On that topic, lead routes are definatly recommended but do it right. By that I mean don't do like Gagetown and have all the challenging routes stuck on the lead waLL. In calgary, I haven't tied in the lead end in a gym and none of my partners either. Either we are getting old or we just know that hurting ourselves in a gym is a lame story. SO keep TR routes challenging for people who just want the physical challenge. BUT on the same token, some of the routes that are set up for leading here are not necessarily on overhangs so that allows to lead on the less burly stuff. I'm in rant mode cause I just drove 8 hours of prairie hwy. Oh and guess what... its calling for +15 in Banff tomorrow, EEOR here we come.

[Pierre]

Please continue this topic......but can I get some ideas on construction also? Contractors? design? size? How much lead....toprope.....bouldering?

I think it's important to have a good mix of all three....

Bouldering is a must for those times you show up at the gym without a partner and can't find anyone to belay for ya. I think if done right you don't neccessarily need a dedicated area for this.

Lead and top rope areas can be combined, during slow period you can allow people to lead climb and during busy periods you have more wall space to offer your clients. You could always dedicated a night where lead climbing takes priority.

I think Moncton is in a good location and has the population to make a climbing gym work. There is several Colleges and University in the greater Moncton area so you should be able to grab some clientele.

If a gym was to open up in Moncton - I would try and get a climbing club going here at MTA. There was a lot of interest before but the biggest problem was a lack of a facility buildering on Sandstone buildings only goes so far...

Anyways good luck Dean, I hope to see this climbing gym work out..

If you need a extra brain for brainstroming let me know.

[Fred]

I'd recommend keeping lead routes on more overhanging or slightly overhanging to avoid ankle injuries. And I'd avoid having toprope routes on big overhanging routes because of the swing and the groundfall potential off the start. It's too much to get them to clip into directionals. Most wouldn't understand that concept.

If it were me... I'd say 50% bouldering 25%TR and 25% lead wall.

One of the major expenses $$$ you need to look at is padding. You may have overlooked this. Talk to other commercial gyms and find out the best systems.

[Pierre]

One of the major expenses $$$ you need to look at is padding. You may have overlooked this. Talk to other commercial gyms and find out the best systems.

Good point, I've been in some gyms where the flooring is in pretty bad shape

I was at a GYM this summer that used pepples for there flooring... I'm assuming this was done as a cost saving measure and for it's durablity. I didn't mind it except for the lower foot holds seemed to be a bit more greasy from the dust....

And I'd avoid having toprope routes on big overhanging routes because of the swing and the groundfall potential off the start. It's too much to get them to clip into directionals. Most wouldn't understand that concept.

I didn't seem to be an issue at the places I've climbed, then again they made you take 2 hour long belay course before you could freely climbing in the gym...

Here's another thought about the possible climbing gym in Moncton.. Have you thought about selling climbing equipment at the gym? Moncton presently does not have any specialty stores dealing with climbing or outdoor gear, it might be worth considering selling the basics for indoor climbing. ( Harness, Shoes, Chalk, etc.. )

Later

[Fred]

there is no arguing that a lead fall into thin air on overhangin walls is much safer for your ankles than on a vertical wall

anything past 10 degrees overhanging should work.

[Pierre]

there is no arguing that a lead fall into thin air on overhangin walls is much safer for your ankles than on a vertical wall

anything past 10 degrees overhanging should work.

I agree your lead routes should be overhanging, I was referring to getting them to clipping/unclipping into directional during top roping, to stop the large swing during a fall.

I find you have to find the right balance of lead routes / top rope routes in your gym, I've seen gyms about 50% lead routes and feel they under utilized and the top rope routes are over utilized.

That's why I was suggesting having walls with both lead and top rope routes on them. I do think that you should have a few routes that are exclusively for lead climbers but I'm not sure I would have over 25% of the gym setup this way.

But then again this all boils down to who you are marketing the gym to.
It's obvious that if you setup a gym for elite climbers that your gym setup would be way different than if your trying to get as many ppl through the doors ( Targeting children, college/university students, families ) to make a profit.

[thicks]

First of all I love the energy this thread is getting. Go Dean!

One of the major expenses $$$ you need to look at is padding. You may have overlooked this. Talk to other commercial gyms and find out the best systems.

Can anyone else think of any hidden costs or ideas for income to keep this gym going? I really like matt's idea of talking to the gym teachers, especially the high school gym teachers. I think Tremble used to have a gym; if they do then some of those students would be great gym members, if not then the school might give ya a deal on old holds if you give a couple of classes some gym time. And there is still that boys and girls club in Dieppe that had a gym, those holds must be somewhere.

Is there anything else you could use some ideas for Dean? I have a family member that does bulk tshirt sales, and if you want I could talk to him about getting some gym shirts made eventually. There must be a graphic designer out there that wouldnt mind shooting ya a logo idea or two, just for their portfolio(and if there isnt someone then i know someone).

but again, is there anything else we can help with?
T

[martha]

The biggest expense Bar none will be insurance.

for wall designs, check out

Edge Walls and

Eldo Walls


Hiring competent staff will be tricky. As well as finding competent route setters, instructors etc. Those worries are down the road, but worth thinking about now.

[Pierre]

Can anyone else think of any hidden costs or ideas for income to keep this gym going?

Ideas for income to keep this gym going...

Climbing Safety course and Lead climbing courses... outdoor group trips

Rentals/Sales - shoes, harness, chalk bag, belay devices

Kids Programs - birthday parties, after school programs, summer climbing camps, overnighter programs

Team Building - corporate team builiding

Group climbing experiences - group programs, presentations, parties, charity events, and competitions

Could also develop a physical education class through the school district.

Other thoughts are mobile wall for summer events and birthday party renatls..
[/list]

[martha]

as for lead climbing courses, you have to be very careful. There no official 'certification' program for climbers in Canada. teaching people how to lead on your own indoor wall is fine. but suggesting that they are okay to do so outside is very different.

what you teach in advanced climbing courses has to be well thought out.

Regardless, in a new gym with new clientele, you can start and only teach top roping /belaying/tieing in for the first year or so. Then move into other things.

[martha]

as for kids programs, a 'sister' program to our junior development climbing would be cool cause then there would be youth getting strong in Moncton/Hfx and Fredericton and the Junior competitions would be that much more fun for them.

I'm talking about getting these kids climbing hard with proper technique etc. Not just an after school baby sittinig course.

[Pierre]

I'm just babbling

I've noticed a lot of gyms rent belay devices.... I would assume that this would mean that the gym are not using a direct belay method.

I climbed at gym that was setup this way, you were required to take their belay course or challenge the course after that you had your choice of belay device that you could use ( GriGri, ATV or reverso ). For a intro to climbing they had staff/volunteers belay for ppl first time out. The hopes would be if your serious about climbing you will take the belay course. They also used a 3 strike rule, so if you were dangerously belaying you basically had 3 warning until they required you to take the belay course again.

At first I thought this was a bad way of doing things but after a few days of being in the gym I found that the people in the gym were more serious and attendive about belaying than at gyms with direct belays where they give you a 5 minute over view how to use the grigri.

The gym was still packed with kids but it didn't seem like a over sized jungle gym which can be a annoying.

They also required kids under 13 to where a helmet while climbing...

I was wondering if ppl think this is a good way to run things... Would running a gym like this effect the cost of insurance..