Histoory on the so called 'Dump'

[Rob L]

A bunch of us climbed here back in the early ‘90’s (Mark & Stephen Dixon, JP Graham, TJ Jellinek, myself). The “666” or whatever was painted on the rightside of the wall then. I told Zig about this place 5 or 6 years a go and he went in there so I wouldn’t say people have discovered this ‘new’ area. I am sure there could be some potential for new routes/problems but we climbed the hell out of the area back in the early ‘90s. Plus, not too long ago I went in there with ice tools and used it as a mixed climbing practice area since I assumed it was a dump and Zig had already said it sucked for climbing. Personally if people want to claim first ascents go ahead and grade/name them but they probably aren't true 'first ascents'.
Rob Lemmon

[Stef]

Make me wonder how many lines in New Brunswick have had multiple first ascents ! We should keep track of them, I claim the official third, first ascent of "About a rope direct".

Cheers,

Stef.

[martha]

It is like Pharoh Fawcett (sorry on the spelling) ...fred has the FFA, but Mike fellows swears it was done ground up and dirty about 15 years ago.


I'm sure there are tons of routes like this. And of course the same goes for the 'Dump'. We knew people had been there ages ago... or at least I did.

[Fred]

Make me wonder how many lines in New Brunswick have had multiple first ascents ! We should keep track of them, I claim the official third, first ascent of "About a rope direct".

Cheers,

Stef.

Stef, I'm convinced no one climbed to the left side of that flake which you and I climbed prior this year. And if they did then I'd like to talk to them about it and find out how they managed to plug gear into a soiled filled crack. But I could be wrong.



On another note,
I'm slightly irritated at people who give a blanket FA coverage of walls or areas. Like a while back when Shawn made the comment that everything on Upper Tier had been climbed at one time or another. I think that's a load. I'm quite confident that no one climbed "Evolution", "Stinky Bum" or "Flux Capacitor" prior last year.

If you've sent something, tell me what the exact route is, the key holds, the grade and what day you climbed it on. Otherwise, it's in the air and not very credible.

[martha]

I think that many trad routes in welsford, if not most, have been climbed, but hard crimpy faces were not likely led as there were no bolts there for protection.

However, that doesn't rule out the possibility that the lines you speak of on upper tier weren't top roped at some time 10 or more years ago. That is plenty of time for any disturbed moss to regrow.

[Fred]

I think that many trad routes in welsford, if not most, have been climbed, but hard crimpy faces were not likely led as there were no bolts there for protection.

However, that doesn't rule out the possibility that the lines you speak of on upper tier weren't top roped at some time 10 or more years ago. That is plenty of time for any disturbed moss to regrow.

broken off flakes on limited key hand holds don't grow back

these routes have minimal holds and to climb these routes in the state they were in without brushing key holds or breaking off some small crimps, is virtualy impossible. Unless you jumar a fixed line of course. Another thing... if, lets take Evolution as an example, Evolution was in fact climbed 10 years ago... How did one get to the tree trunk to set-up an anchor through impossibly thick branches, without breaking any of them mind you, drape their rope over an unavoidable protruding block at the edge of the cliff without knocking it down, and climb a 5.12 up a mossy face without cleaning key holds. But I guess anything is possible.

The only point I'm trying to make is... don't make a blanket statement about having sent it or everything around it if you haven't even seen the line in question.

I heard a similar statement a while back about Dover Island that everything had been sent at one time or another. But we all know that in fact, there is room for unclimbed lines.

cheers

[ben smith]

yo fred i think the comment about dover (sean T?) was refering to anything below say v3/4. I'd be a fool to claim a v1 first ascent on dover unless a natural disaster had moved boulders around-hell when me and scott stayed out there this summer i climbed somewhere around 15-20 problems not mentioned in the guidebook as warmups but chances are quite good that everyline had been climbed before by sean t or another prolific earlier developer without a published guide, so i didn't claim any first ascents. this doesn't mean that all of the burly lines have been climbed though- I think as a general rule id avoid claiming anything easy in a developed area as opposed to saying EVERYTHING has been done (I know for a fact there are things on dover that haven't gone yet in the 10/11/12 range)

[Shawn B]

What's the bfd? All Rob said was they were in there 10-15 years ago and sent most problems. I think Rob is an honourable fellow who would not say he did something he didn't do. And I don't think he really cares if you want to claim FA of some choss pile boulder problem...he was just stating history of the place for information. Just because someone may not list a particular climb on your self proclaimed "gospel" site doesn't mean it was not done. I'm quite certain Rob and the gang didn't worry about recording names, dates, time, weather, grades, etc or noting witnesses names in the event someone questioned their claims at a later date.

And in reference to my "blanket" statement about Upper Tier, it is quite obvious that I did not mean that every square inch of the rock had been touched. My statement would have meant that most "obvious" lines have probably been top roped at some point in time in the past and not been noted. I'm quite sure there are some more obscure lines which haven't been touched. I also stated that regarding the climb on the left of Pyramid, I climbed a line in that area a number of years ago (I won't say how many). I didn't say it was exactly the same line as you took. I don't know if it was or if you took some 10 foot variation and you wish to claim that as a FA. Whatever. All I remember is when I climbed in that area, I thought there were already two established lines that had been climbed left of About a Rope (not including Marc Dastous' bolted line) but ending in the same area. I don't know if they were lead or tr'd.

When Steve A. and I did (or re-did) all of the lines on what we...for our own purposes...dubbed Simpson Wall in the L Shape there were many cracks and holds that were plugged full and it was clean as you go. I made it quite clear that most lines were probably done before and tried to match up from past descriptions what was what. This all should be noted in an old sign in book along with descriptions. Sorry I didn't transfer this info over to your site.

[Fred]

Shawn,

if I remember correctly, or correct me if I'm wrong, you did say that Evolution had been climbed without having seen the route in question and you did also say that the route on the left of Pyramid had also been climbed without knowing which route Stef and I are talking about.

Rob is also saying that most lines at the dump have probably been climbed but I find it unrealistic since we pulled massive death blocks that would otherwise make these climbs impossible.

I think you are straying from the point here. The point is not about chossy boulders at the dump. who cares?! The point is... don't claim it's all been done if you don't know exactly which line someone is claiming an FA on. Then if you've seen it and can confirm that it was in fact climbed at one point or another then by all means go burst their bubble.

But please don't suggest everything has been climbed at one point or another. I guarantee you that there are tons of lines in Welsford that have never been climbed. Especially on Upper Tier.

peace

[Shawn B]

I can't remember talking about Evolution as I don't know where it is...but if it is the line that goes up the face to the right of Talamasaca it has been done on TR before. There is a small overlap or maybe 2. I was part of a group of probably 5 or 6 people in that area that day and we set a TR on it. We all worked it and Tom Anderson climbed it clean. It was not led.

And re Pyramid, not sure how you can get more than 2 lines between About a Rope and the bolted route without them being the same ones as you were talking about. If you wish to claim a FA because you used 3 or 4 different holds up a line, giver. I truly don't care. I'm sure there are variations through that area that may have not been climbed...probably due to rock quality or pro.

And just to set things straight, I don't think people are trying to "burst other people's bubble". Just trying to keep things straight and point out past history before new history erases it. Not a personal attack on a new first ascentionist. If that is how you view it, that is your own issue. But you should not imply that others are saying they climbed something just because they don't want you or someone else to get a FA.

[Fred]

There is a small overlap or maybe 2.

see that's exactly what I'm talking about. You don't even know what line Evolution is. Overlap with Talsmasaca? no. They don't even touch. yet when I posted about this line a while back you claimed it had already been done and you still claim it has been done yet you don't even know what route I'm talking about. And you are completely missing my point here. Listen to what I'm saying. I DON'T CARE ABOUT THE FA. My point is... don't go spraying that some other person has already sent that route if you don't even know the details.

And re Pyramid, not sure how you can get more than 2 lines between About a Rope and the bolted route without them being the same ones as you were talking about. If you wish to claim a FA because you used 3 or 4 different holds up a line, giver. I truly don't care. I'm sure there are variations through that area that may have not been climbed...probably due to rock quality or pro.

you are still missing the point. My point now, and then, concerning this route was that your description of the line didn't match anything of what I saw out there. And I'm still convinced this is not the line you followed. And given your statements about Upper Tier I could only assume you were make another blind statement that everything in Welsford had already been sent. It seems pretty consistent with other discussions I've had with you so it's not a wild accusations.

You mention that there is no way to squeeze two lines in there yet you just squeezed a line between "Warm and Sultry" and "Human". When you posted your new route between "Warm and Sultry" and "Human" my first reaction was that no way there was a line there and if there was it was only a move or two variation (as you refer to these types of climbs) and for sure somone probably climbed it at one time or another. But you know what?! I've never heard any different and I haven't examined that line closely since you posted it so I'm waiting to go out there and see it for myself or hear from someone who can show me in person that that is the exact line they freed ground up.

I find it ironic that you pin the claim for FA's on me when Steve and yourself completely re-named a wall and routes on it. Yet now you fight to preserve history? Do you see the contradiction there?


Bottom line is. Give it the benefit of the doubt if you aren't 100% sure if a route in question has been climbed before you claim something has already been done. That's all.

I'm confused...

[Shawn B]

Fred sometimes I wonder where you are coming from. Will you please READ what I wrote.

Boys you are grasping now. You feel attacked by me so you swing back? What does a new line between W&S and Human have to do with the left side of Pyramid? And exactly how did Steve and I rename a wall and climbs? There was previously no name for that particular wall. We did not rename the L shape. The L shape is the whole area. Each wall within this area had a name except for this one (ie. Dawn Wall, Upper Dawn Wall, Gallery Wall). And we made it very clear that some of those lines were done before and tried to match them up as best as we could.

And for the record...I DO NOT THINK THAT EVERY INCH OF WELSFORD HAS BEEN CLIMBED BEFORE. I think that most major or obvious lines have been either led or top roped at some point in time. That is how I have always felt. Not saying there aren't variations or some non-obvious line or something really hard that hasn't been done.

Anyhow...I AM NOT MISSING YOUR POINT. I am assuming you would like accurate information in any future guidebook which I thought you were working on. But no worries, you won't get any assistance from me in the event you might think I am trying to "burst your bubble". And I'd be just making blind statements of which have no validity or truth anyway. That is what I do.

[martha]

The thing is that I think you are both sort of saying the same thing, and I respect both your opinions and ideas.

Please kiss and make up.

Just be happy that we can climb at all in welsford and that we are physically and mentally able to do so. (I know you both appreciate these things)

for future guidebooks, whoever is writing one, get as much accurate information as possible from everyone, write it all down, even conflicting stories..that is what history is! I'm sure the Germans tell a different story of WWII than the Canadians do right? So not everything is going to match up perfectly.

Can't everyone just be friends?!

gawd this baby is making me mellow...sigh..I like it better anyways, less stressful!

[Fred]

Fred sometimes I wonder where you are coming from. Will you please READ what I wrote.

palease! don't pretend like your posts are all diplomatic. We are both guilty here. Like I said. The only thing that I care that you get out of this discussion is that don't jump the gun to say something has been done. Say you have incomplete information of a possiblie ascent in that area if you are unsure of ALL the details.

What does a new line between W&S and Human have to do with the left side of Pyramid?

It has everything to do with it????? Did I miss something here. Two post before this one you were hinting that you didn't understand how someone could sqeeze two line between About A Rope and Lady Die. I just made a comparison with something you know so that you can understand that it is possible. I didn't think your route was possible (hence my long winded explanation) but I didn't disagree with it because I don't know anything about the route. As far as those variations go on Pyramid. I don't care. I wouldn't claim FA on those anyways. They suck. It's just to make a point that.... AGAIN... unless you know all the details, your information is not credible and will just lead to more confusion.

So as far as information for future guidebook... I'm looking for acurate information. If you have any, I'm all ears. If you will give me false information from thrid party relay, I don't want it.

But no worries, you won't get any assistance from me in the event you might think I am trying to "burst your bubble".

dude! you are on one serious tangent. This is about you, not me.

And I'd be just making blind statements of which have no validity or truth anyway. That is what I do.

You shouldn't do that. It can lead to false information in guidebooks.

peace out

[Ken P]

It’s not hard to tell that FA are very important to climbers. Are we losing touch with what our pastime is all about? Is climbing truly becoming a sport of one- upmanship? Is a FA just another way of telling future climbers to that route, that your climb is meaningless?
About ten years ago, I was climbing in an area (sorry I can’t tell ya’ll where it is) that I truly thought I could have been the only climber who would take the time to climb there. After a proud first ascent, rumor surfaced that some old-timer 30-40 years prior had climbed there. My first thoughts were of course, his whole damn family probably climbed there. A short time later I had to find out for myself, and without a doubt the old-fella did the climb. Possibly a slight variation, but he climbed it. He seemed quite tickled that someone came to talk about his climb all these years later. Come to find out; it was infact a solo, in this case climbing high enough he was too afraid to climb back down.
I’m curious to find out if this has happened to any one else, and if you think this has happened more than we think.
I still have some FA in my little area that I’m proud of...or do I? I think I’ll keep them to myself. Who knows 30 or 40 years from now?

[Shawn B]

This is about you, not me.

You are supposed to be getting ready to have a child, not acting like one.

don't pretend like your posts are all diplomatic

Gee thanks. I don't usually think of myself as diplomatic. I think I kind of like it...instead of being blunt and saying it like I see it.

It can lead to false information in guidebooks.

I have certainly seen lots of false info in some guidebooks. Oops...there goes the diplomacy.

Hey I think I finally figured out this quote thing.
Go ahead...I know you always have something to say about everything and have to have the last word. Damn...that diplomacy thing sure was short lived. I'm done now.

[Shawn B]

Nope...I guess I didn't figure the quote thing out. Oh well.

[martha]

You are supposed to be getting ready to have a child, not acting like one.

I don't think that is a fair comment... We are both very ready, and excited for this baby.

Fred just gets hot headed and wants his opinions known. I can't blame him for that. we all do.

However, in saying that, I have learned to not get stressed about this forum. it is tame in comparison to the crap that goes on the rockclimbing.com forum and others anyday..and it just isn't worth getting stressed over, nor making bad friends over. it is just a forum!

so momma says...stop with the bantering already! (both of you!) and just be nice to everyone! hehe....again...this baby is making me a mellow yellow mushy gushy easy going not AS confrontational gal!

It can lead to false information in guidebooks.

I have certainly seen lots of false info in some guidebooks. Oops...there goes the diplomacy.

In Freds defense on the last issue of the guidebook, if that is the one you are speaking of....and he has said this himself on this forum and to others, there is some mis information in it. He simply copied from the previous versions, adding together Ghislain and JP's 'new routes guides' etc, and only edited the descriptions of climbs he had done personally. The guidebook was needed as there wasn't a recent edition out and I think Fred did a great job of that considering his experience at that time. He put in many hours doing this and did it purely as a service to the climbing community. No money has been made, in fact he has barely broken even on printing/selling the book.

[martha]

Nope...I guess I didn't figure the quote thing out. Oh well.

I fixed your first quote for you. the rest you had done right.

[Fred]

You are supposed to be getting ready to have a child, not acting like one.

I know you are... but what am I?

[martha]

[mathieu]

[This forum] is tame in comparison to the crap that goes on the rockclimbing.com forum and others anyday..

Yes, not quite rockclimbing.com but we are at least on the same level as the piss contest that goes on here in the rockies. See live-the-vision.com about the ghost closure post, talk about saying the same thing and arguing over semantics (see, 7 years university did teach me big words). But I must say in Fred and Shawn's defence, I was entertained for a good half hour.

[The Teth]

Yeah, if they quit the speed reading and read the posts slowly and carefully as dyslexics like me have to, then their responses would likely be far less entertaining.