The new spot

[john]

Mike and I went out last week to the new bouldering area he knew about, off the highway and sent a few new problems, two of which were really quite good. The area is small but entertaining for an afternoon, nothing really hard, but a decent spot close to town.

Its quite a nice spot, and faces the sun most of the day. Its great to find a new area, no broken glass litter or signs of anyone around. I have heard second hand, that some people have since decided to paint names of routes on the rock "a la" the woodlot. This is not cool, its just a matter of degree separating this act from littering, breaking bottles etc. and is unnecesary. If the proverbial "you" want the route name to be known for whatever reason, make a mini guide and put it on the net. Even most Bleausards have changed their way, we should follow suit. Painting the rock is graffiti, it in no way makes the experience more enjoyable; is not necessary and takes the enjoyment away from some.

I don't know exactly who has done this, nor do I care. I just wanted to express this opinion, in case whoever did it, perhaps, is new to the sport and didn't consider this side of the coin prior to their action. If it was someone who knows better than I am wasting my time, but on the off chance that it was a new climber, mabey this post, if seen, will stop simoilar actions in the future.

John Bowles

Here are the problems we did:

1) To the left of the highest point on the cliss is an arete with a large hole on the right face. From the sit start climb the arete past the hole and top out. Its dirty we had no brushes or pads, there was chaulk on it so it may have been climbed part way before but the chaulk stop well away from the top

2) To the right of the highest point is a slab/vertical section with old spray paint on it that is very faint from either 86' or 66'. Climb straight up from the bottom staying in the middle of the face and don't fall.

3) On the far right end of the climbing is a smal outcrop with a birch tree growing from under a small overhang which rubs on the rock itself. Start on an obvious jug beside the birch tree and climb the arete to a top out. Very short route but neat heel hooks.

[Fred]

I got the FA on those routes when we climbed there for the first time a couple weeks ago. I hope you are joking when you say someone wrote names on the routes. Let me know who it was and I'll go write my name on their car.

[Fred]

btw

the new spot has already been named "The Dump"

[jeremy]

where is this "Dump" spot

jeremy

[martha]

okay,

we know who wrote the route names on the routes.

you guys suck.

yes that is how it was done at the woodlot. but that was a long time ago, and against ethics now. Yes, it was done in quebec and france, but they don't do it anymore. and wish they hadn't in the first place.

This is NOT France. this is Canada, and it is not how we do things here.

John, you are right, it was partially a bunch of newbies who don't know any better cause they know nothing about climbing anywhere else but here and in the gym. They know nothing about ethics or anything else in the big picture of climbing. And the rest, well, I'm not surprised, cause they have little respect for most things.

Climbers work hard to keep a positive image and reputation. This sort of thing is just bad for us as a group in so many ways.

Shame on you all.

What is next? Welsford?

[Fred]

where is this "Dump" spot

jeremy

When leaving Fredericton on the 4 lane highway towards Longs Creek. Pass under the Hanwell overpass. Not far down the road you come to a very long left curving guard rail on your right. Park at the far end of the guard rail near a brook and culvert. Follow the right side of the brook. The cliff line is up on the right about 200m into the woods. When there are no leaves you can see the rocks.

[Shawn B]

I'm sorry as this is off topic but I personally find it offensive when people refer to new climbers as "newbies" or "noobs". How is this any less disrespectful than those who do something that they may think is ok to do (ie. writing on the rock) and they just don't know it is wrong? It is elitist and condescending. See how John's post refers to people new to the sport as "new climbers" and not some condescending name. Show these new climbers respect, educate them and I'm sure they will in turn show respect to climbing and the environment in which we recreate.

[Nihoa]

i can see the arguement of keeping a climbing area pristine. but after having cleaned the rock of all the moss and lichens, removed all the loose rock on the route, cleared trees and veg away from the top outs and landings, and built the fire pit, i dont see how adding a little paint makes the area any less serene. i think this is an all or nothing arguement, either you leave the place alone or you dont. drawing lines somewhere in the middle of how much you can/cannot disturb an area is subjective

i would also suggest that those who painted on saturday were neither newbies nor locals that havent been anywhere else. and to the best of my knowledge, noone set anything in places where routes were already established. but i could be wrong, had they been painted i would have known better. as far as the naming of the routes being juvenile, yea youre right. but whatever, i was told that those who found this new area had a theme going for the names and we didnt stray too far from that. so that arguement shouldnt be directed at us

anyway, its too bad there are differences in opinion on how areas should be treated. a tragedy of the commons...

mark alexander macdonald

[martha]

I'm sorry as this is off topic but I personally find it offensive when people refer to new climbers as "newbies" or "noobs". How is this any less disrespectful than those who do something that they may think is ok to do (ie. writing on the rock) and they just don't know it is wrong? It is elitist and condescending. See how John's post refers to people new to the sport as "new climbers" and not some condescending name. Show these new climbers respect, educate them and I'm sure they will in turn show respect to climbing and the environment in which we recreate.

You are right Shawn. These are new climbers, and we were all new once. Calling them newbs isn't really fair. Some of the guilty party are members of our community who have been climbing here for a number of years and are not new. They should have known better. They DO know better.

[martha]

mark....


I think that there was one route name put up that I am aware of '5$ pussy' That was Freds route. he cleaned it and climbed it and named it. I don't think there was a 'theme' established. anyways, who cares about the names really..Every climbing area has its share of 'interesting' route names. Painting these names on the rock is the problem.

Trees and lichen grow back. paint will be there forever. And most people when the clean routes/problems are careful to only clean what is necessary.

Anyways, forget the arguments. It is against local ethics. I know who the climbers were (yes all of them) and some of them are new), some of them are not. Some of them have climbed elsewhere (meaning, away from NB/NS), most of them have not. However, I think it is clear they are all lacking respect for the greater community of climbers if they can blatantly go against what has been established here as a set of practices. The newer climbers I can forgive since they may not have known better.

Like I said before...Is welsford next? Why draw the line between this little bouldering spot and our home crag? Who will teach the newer climbers in this bunch that this practice of painting route names on the rock isn't accepted anywhere? What if they establish a route in welsford, or a boulder problem in welsford and paint the route name on there?

[Fred]

You are right. It is subjective and often people who find new areas set the tone. I found it quite hard to navigate the area when I went so I'm not entirely opposed to writing the names. As you all know I've spent much time developing mini guides and also Welsford's latest guidebook. But with this area there are little cracks and corners to use for topos so perhaps writing the names will help climbers find the routes. So in turn, maybe it's not all bad. We might even consider showing variations with different colors and perhaps a few tick marks which will help climbers who are new to the area find their way. We could perhaps even show lines with a faint doted line like they have in guidebooks but paint it right on the cliff.

[Fred]

oh good god I peed my pants when I heard one of them had this to say... quote unquote

do away with tradition or how things have always been, they impede progess.. get with
the times

Come on guys! Get with the times eh!

[Ropeguy]

Just got back from Canadian Tire ,Spray cans on sale.....Bought a whole bunch!! Who wants to meet in Welsford this weekend??? Florecent too,really make it look pretty, Like the fall colors!!

[Newf]

You guys are a bunch of (content moderated) whiners. The way I see it if you don't own the property shut the (content moderated) up and just climb.

I like ropeguys idea Florecent, Welsford would look really pretty.


Jeff

[Ian_the_Barbarian]

I figure anything that can improve access to the site for everybody is a good thing. I agree that emblazoning the name in 2 foot high white letters detracts from aesthetics, but I don't see how a small label marking the location of a safe, claned route constitues a violation of an apparently debatable code of ethics.

Climbers work hard to keep a positive image and reputation. This sort of thing is just bad for us as a group in so many ways.

Shame on you all.

It's pretty insulting to be labeled as part of a group that is damaging the image and reputation of New Brunswick climbers. A lot of established climbers seem to think that this horrific assault on the pristinity of the Dump site is a non-issue. I don't appreciate the condescention and I'm pretty sure the rest of us don't either. "Shame on you all"... listen to yourself for godsake.

The newer climbers I can forgive since they may not have known better

I don't believe that this is an issue of forgiveness or that you are authorized to deliver said forgiveness. Please..."they may not have known better", try to be a little less demeaning when you talk about us poor newbies.

If you can get a letter sent to me from the president of world rock climbing saying that we screwed up, then I'll take it all back. Until then, keep the insults to yourself.

[dave]

Well first of all I have to say I dont know anything about the New Brunswick climbing community. So i dont know what this woodlot is, it already has names painted on boulder problems? That alone is pretty surprising to me? So maybe i shouldn't even weigh in on this.

I'm just shocked by the (without meaning so sound any ruder than i actually am) sheer stupidity of it. I can think of absolutely no reason to paint a name (or anything else) on a route or problem.

I mean little orange arrows on the circuits in font that have been there for decades is one thing but finding a boulder in the woods in Canada, climbing on it and then painting a name on it is just plain silly?

As for the code of ethics being debateable, thats very true, however i dont think anyone will disagree that you should attempt to leave an area looking as natural as possible. Sure the cleaning of lichen is obviously nesscesary and occasionaly a minimal amount of "gardening" might need to be done on surounding trees but that can be done while still leaving the area looking almost as if nobody had ever been there. Um, i seem to be ranting much more than i itended, all i wanted to say was that i was surprised

[martha]

A lot of established climbers seem to think that this horrific assault on the pristinity of the Dump site is a non-issue.

I doubt this. If you are talking about the climbers that were there on the weekend, only a few ring out to me as 'established climbers' the rest are pretty new in the game.

keep the insults to yourself.

I wasn't trying to insult anyone. I was just stating my opinion and also making sure that people know what I think the established ethics of climbing in NB are. Which obviously you didn't know, nor did most of the climbers in the group that were there on the weekend. That is not your fault.

the 'shame on you all' was intended for the 'established climbers' that you speak of because frankly, they know better. They just don't care.


Dave has it right, the idea is to always leave an area as pristine as possible...and 'surprising' is a good word to describe the behaviour for sure.

[Fred]

Dave and John,

you both used words like "Font", "Circuits", "Bleausards". These guys have no idea what that means. I'm sure none of them (except two) are aware of the history of bouldering in Font. Like they said: "get with the times"

[martha]

I figure anything that can improve access to the site for everybody is a good thing.

Okay, awesome. then we should pave the trail in so that wheelchairs can make it down the path and spray all the lichen with Javex so it doesn't grow back and brushes off more easily.


Obviously Ian, I know you didn't mean that...but in this community...we are all SOOOOO opinionated. I have learned the hard way that people take anything you say and construe it to mean whatever they want it to mean... Welcome to the climbers forum.!! HA!

Go Check out http://www.rockclimbing.com and some of the other climbing forums about topics like this and see what you can read. a lot more flaming than you see here for sure! and a lot more insults and stabbing etc. Not that it is right, but just so you don't think it is just me and a few others with the attitude. On the flip side, you'll also get to see a lot about the history of climbing in many areas and also how these opinions are pretty much standard.

[MMM]

On October 5th, 2005... I was surprised to spot the small cliff, now known as "the dump", off the highway on my way home one evening. No one had told me about anything out there, I just got lucky in spotting it, and in my excitement I then told a few people about it. " ...a small rock outcropping that was exposed to the sun all day... ". Ten days later I hiked out there alone. It was a beautiful, untouched area. I saw none of the tell tale signs of the area having been climbed in a very long time, if ever. I noticed "66" with some other spray painting on one of the slabs, a few old burnt logs along the hillside leading up to the area... and other than that, there were no signs of the place being visited in a long time. Even the near-by 4 wheeler trail didn't look as if it has gotten much use in recent years. I built a small inukshuk under the leftmost overhang.

It was so peaceful there, and clean, and I could not wait to get back, but was unable to do so until the 6th of November. I was shocked to see that trees were down, and chalk was dusted onto several holds. Out of all the years this cliff has gone unnoticed, during my three week absence someone else had found the place. Doah! At first I was selfishly glad that the trees were down, the climbing was better for it... although I was disappointed to not be able to climb the un-established routes I was so looking forward to. I am not good enough of a climber to really care about first ascents, but I really enjoy climbing an area that has no "chalk beta".

By the time I went back to climb with John B. on Oct 9th, the place was starting to look a bit used, and I was appalled to see litter already! Someone had left a broken pole-end with blue duct tape on it. It was probably used to clean holds high up, and was unmistakably new trash to the area (left sometime between Oct 15th, and Nov 9th), and it is pretty safe to assume it was left by a climber. I brought it out, and still have it with me, if anyone wants to claim it.

Now I hear the place is being painted and a fire pit added. What a shame to have discovered such a beautiful area only to ruin it as to fit our wants. Is this what climbing is about?

[Fred]

The piece of the pole is mine Mike. Sorry about that. Jeff broke it off and then taped the brush closer in. He must not have picked up the broken piece. I'm sure I would have packed it out had I of know.

As for chalk on the problems. Sorry man but I had to send those lines. hehe. And I knew about the place before you.

You can be certain though that I had nothing to do with building firepits or painting.

[martha]

Jon Lodge and Derick Smith climbed there years ago but didn't bother going back as it isn't that good anyways.

[Hum]

My bad about that.. I broke it off and left it by the pad but as we were leaving, I musta forgot about it, when we moved to a new spot. Althoughit it was suggested, I would never have knowingly left it there and not picked it up ...I do respect the land and take out everything that I take in.. Mike , you would know from all the times we climbed and hung out together at other crags. its just not something that I would do on purpose.

[Fred]

My bad about that.. I broke it off and left it by the pad but as we were leaving, I musta forgot about it, when we moved to a new spot. Althoughit it was suggested, I would never have knowingly left it there and not picked it up ...I do respect the land and take out everything that I take in.. Mike , you would know from all the times we climbed and hung out together at other crags. its just not something that I would do on purpose.

I agree Jeff. I know you wouldn't have purpously left it behind. It was an honnest mistake on both our parts. No worse then leaving a pair of climbing shoes out by mistake and picking them up on the next visit.

I think the issue at hand here is more the painting.

[MMM]

Hey Fred and Jeff,

You are right, had I known it was a bit left behind by you guys I would not have assumed that it was done so with intent, as I know you are both very responsible.

To all:
I included that part in my last posting to enhance an awareness of all of our impact on a new area, in order to attempt to prevent further unsightly impact on any new areas. The more signs of our presence there, the more noticible it would be to someone who could potentially prevent us from using a climbing area like this... like say, the owners of that land. If we leave little trace, then we should be able climb there for a long time. Sure its not considered to be a great area.... but to a beginner its a superb little cliff.

The point was not who left it or why... it just went along with the bigger issues of painting, and fire pit building.... and more so, the possibility of further damage to the area.
I am trying to castigate those who have done their part in defacing the area, but to prevent any further similar actions.
Cheers,
Mike

[john]

The Known yet Unrecognized Spiral

DISCLAIMER: The following is long winded because I care. If this article is to long for you to waste time with, please read the first and last paragraph, you may find yourself interested enough to read the rest.

At least some good has come of this, Ian you seem to be truly interested in learning the origins of this issue and others. For you I am going to post a few thoughts and recommend some books. But, first to answer the previous reference to “a world climbing president”. As you ca imagine there is no, one world climbing president per say, but there is local leaders, such as the head of each chapter of the Alpine Club of Canada (for each region), similarly the head of each chapter and ultimately president of the American Alpine Club. Europe has similar organizations and governing bodies many of which are far more serious, than there North American counterparts. Additionally, there are bodies such as the UIAA which govern technical standards etc. The contact info for each of the respective people/bodies mentioned is available on the web, through a Google search. What each of these people will likely answer, as far as local ethics, with respect to painting route names on the rock is: historically it developed in Fontainebleau France (circa late 1800's) as circuits for which alpinists used to train for mountain routes. A few other localized pockets of paint activity developed in other world locations in intervening years, although minimally in comparison. Since this time, everywhere I know of has virtually agreed to no longer continue with the practice (although in Font they do maintain the existing circuits), of course there are exceptions to this rule. Reasons for why paint is no longer accepted are as varied as the locations in which it was used and I will try not pass judgment in my following assessment.

To understand why and how the strong ethics of some of today’s climbers formed, particularly traditional ones, you have to understand the development of North American (NA) climbing from the beginning to the end. This is far too lengthy a history to fully explore here (I will recommend books below, if you are still interested after this spiel). However, in short, climbing began as mountaineering, which was undertaken from bottom to top of mountains around the world. Climbers were explorers, many of which were surveyors of new unmapped areas of the world. Then came climbing mountains for leisure, with that came general alpinism and eventually rock and ice climbing (I left a lot out, but the idea is clear). With climbing interest growing virgin peaks became harder to find and get to, so people began to climb the same mountains by differing routes and more and more difficult lines. With the idea of pursuing climbing for difficulties sake (rather than just to get to the top by the easiest route) developing later. Climbing became a sport for the wealthy and scientific and a sense of great nationalism (circa 1920’s-1960’s) as a race to climb the world’s highest mountains was under taken.

Skipping a bit and moving onto North American rock climbing.

As climbing began in NA again it generally transpired on easy mountain routes and progressed to pure rock etc. (again skipping forward) A large jump in rock climbing standards was seen in NA with the advent of the cromoly piton (as opposed to soft iron used in the European Alps) by Chouinard, specifically for the hard granite cracks of Yosemite. With these pitons, the early rock climbing pioneers pushed standards in Yosemite through the proverbial roof (really interesting details of this generation in the book Camp 4 by Roper). The next big jump came when it was realized that the metal pitons were destroying the rock with every ascent. The natural solution (no pun intended) was the introduction of "nuts" (used also in Britain around and before this time) and clean climbing tactics, which no longer destroyed the rock. Robbins was a big player in this and initially was considered crazy for trusting them. With nuts came another rise in standards. All this while climbing was only allowed ground up, on sight with no pre-inspection, and stated as “the only fair means” and also the only practical means on such big walls.

During this time Warren Harding climbed the Nose using siege tactics while Robbins was pioneering huge free routes near by, this caused one of the first and largest ethics debates in climbing (see Camp 4). It was generally thought that ground up and clean was the best, but Harding took almost a year of on and off efforts with hundreds of hand drilled bolts to complete the Nose. Some saw him as visionary others as the death of climbing ethics (see Downward Bound by Harding). Even during this time virtually everyone still applied, ground up ethics, with as few bolts as possible. As the better Yosemite routes were climbed, efforts focused on repeating routes, but in better style then the first ascentionist (i.e. using less bolts and more free climbing) This lead to chopping of some bolts and the first bolt wars (but not "THE bolts wars"- see later). Despite this it was accepted by almost all, that each ascent strived for a better style than the previous, although many fell short.

To skip ahead and keep moving, Friends were invented next, by Lowe although Ray Jardine gets the credit. With friends a whole new world of possibilities opened up and free climbing exploded. Nuts and cams were all that were needed for many previous aid climbs to be freed. Ethics reined and bold hard lines were developed through out NA (much history in the Gunks and Yosemite, see - Climb Free by Hill).

During the eighties many climbers focused on hard free climbing from which developed a slide in ethics to the use of hang dogging, pre-inspection and rappelling into routes, these principles were scorned by Robbins and the old generation, but some didn't care. This ultimately led to rap bolting and "sport climbing". Thus began “The Bolt Wars”. Tradionalists argued that ethics of previous generation were not being upheld, the mental aspect of climbing was taken away and with it, a large tradition and essence of the sport. Also, the sport climbers were taking away the dwindling resources and first ascents from future generations, who would eventually be strong and good enough to climb the sport routes with out bolts (to a large extent they were correct as many of the routes could be and were freed clean later). The new sport climbers argued generally that they didn’t care, resources were plentiful and it was easier to push standards. Push standards they did, moving the top end grade from 5.12 to 5.13 to 5.14 to eventually 5.15. With sport climbing came: the shortening of the apprenticeship required to learn the art and techniques of traditional climbing, removal of any mental challenge and the theft of unmarred natural routes for future generation. Thus, completed the separation of sport and trad climbing.

So why did I get into this looooong summary? How does it translate into local ethics? Well, with all that went on in the past, a few prominent climbers considered climbing fundamentals to be divided into Style and Ethics. Style is a personal choice that each climber chooses for their own reason (hangdog vs. yo-yo, on sight vs. pre-inspect, top down vs. ground up etc), hopefully striving for the best they can achieve at the time. A climber’s style affects no one but themselves, and the challenges that they seek. Ethics are more serious. Ethics are a development of a code of conducts particular to a local area or community. Ethics are the governing set of rules to conduct yourself by, since ethics inherently affect someone else’s experience (bolting vs. natural, leaving fixed lines vs. cleaning them, littering vs. cleaning up, marking the rock, chipping, gluing, excessive ticking or brushing, clear cutting and so on). These factors decide for the next person/generation what state our resources will be in for the future. For example, Everest has literally hundreds of tons of garbage on it from only 52 years of expeditions, Yugi Hirayama’s claim of the worlds first on sight of a 14b is being challenged because it was ticked excessively making it “easy” for him, fixed lines tangle and blow in the wind all over Jannu and may other large mountains taking away the respectability of a true alpine ascent, due to escape lines, boldness of classic mountain and wall test pieces of the past are permanently gone, due to retro bolting i.e. Pacific Ocean Wall, many previous natural routes have been “aggressively” cleaned, downgrading them and many crags have been shut due to devegatation, littering and general destruction of the environment. This is why Ethics REALLY matter. To keep it in perspective and decide whether it is style or ethics, you only have to ask yourself a simple question: is what I am doing permanently impacting tomorrow’s outcome and if so, make a decision in the interest of the greater good of the climbing community. It will be argued by detractors that everything is a matter of degree, this is true. If we as a community want to preserve the environment to the ultimate degree, no one would leave the house (or maybe even be alive - extremist) for fear of impact. On the opposite end of the scale, one may decide to clear cut the forests of the world to expose the most rock possible and dig out the base of El Cap to make it higher. The extremes obviously are not the solution and what is right for one geographic area may not be for another, hence local ethics. Local ethics are established by one generation and handed to the next, in effort to mitigate impact to an area/sport by a generation who has experience, and has seen the outcome of a “lifetime” worth of experiences. It is the job of the new generation to develop their own style while respecting established ethics and hopefully IMPROVEING on them for the next generation. This attitude helps foster respect for oneself, others and the resource we all cherish. That is why ethics are so important.

John Bowles

[MMM]

I had typed

" I am trying to castigate those who have done their part in defacing the area, but to prevent any further similar actions.
Cheers,"

I meant to type:

"I am NOT trying to castigate those who have done their part in defacing the area, but trying to prevent any further similar actions.
Cheers,"

sorry bout the type-o

[Ian_the_Barbarian]

John,

That makes a lot more sense now. I really just wanted to cut through the bs and figure out the reason why we don't mark routes (see my posts in the thread I started). I still don't entirely agree that a small label does more harm than good in a place like Dump, but I guess I'm entitled to my opinion the same as everybody else. Understanding the reason makes it a lot easier to comprehend others' opposition though and makes their point of view a lot easier to respect. I generally try not to p!ss people off, and knowing more about this will at least make me think twice when visiting new spots in the future.

Cara,

Even if you weren't trying to be insulting, it did come off that way...at least to me and a few others anyway. Anyway, it doesn't matter. I just wanted to let you know that you might have offended a few with your earlier post.

At any rate, I'm moving to Vancouver next year and this whole thing will probably seem pretty trivial compared to some of the debates out there where the climbing community is a lot bigger and there are a lot more opinionated folks to express their undoubtedly differing views.

out.

[Shawn B]

I nominate JB for Premier!! See how productive things can be if approached in the a proper and professional manner with style, dignity and respect vs. a "holier than thou", abrupt or elitist approach. Nice to see. Good onya John.

Fred, fingers sore from being caught in the cookie jar? 2 funny. Leaving behind a pole...unbelievable the litter. What next? You'll be leaving your car behind or something like that.

Just for info purposes, who tagged the routes in the woodlot?

And I am ignorant to the situation other than reading here, but by the sounds of it...does it really matter? The area doesn't sound that important or attractive in the overall climbing scene in NB...hence the name I'm assuming. Is it really that offensive? Done in Welsford...a different story. Done where many others will see it and be offended by it and say "those climbers a scumballs" (ie. graffiti)...different. I'm not condoning it or saying I agree one way or the other, but is it really that big a deal. Heck, if someone wanted to do it on those crappy little cliffs in Rockwood Park...I could care less. They've already got 5 bolts plus anchors in 20 feet of climbing. Welsford...again different story. To a non-climber just walking by, what would be noticed first...the spotless freshly scrubbed lines with chalk marks all the way up it on an otherwise mossy boulder or a small number painted at the base? I don't know...but really just asking?

And finally...some fodder for thought...is the lightning bolt on Midnight Lightning in Camp 4 graffiti? Or history? Maybe you should use symbols instead of numbers. I'm sure Fred's new route there would have an interesting symbol. And btw Fred, I find that name offensive...yet arousing.

[Fred]

Shawn,

you are right in saying it is a dump. But unfortunatly what happens if you give an arms lenght is next time it's more. Some saw it out in the Woodlot and then used the similar approach at the Dump. The next generation might see it at the Dump and apply it in Welsford.


I don't think one can argue that painting the rocks is a bad idea. That's just my opinion though. Although this new spot is "a dump" I still had fun out there that day climbing some fun new problems. Enough that I'll likely go back. I don't want to see a fire pit and painted route names next time I'm out. If people were offended by our opinion then maybe they realize it wasn't such a great idea. I'll be the first to admit that I'm always defensive when I realize I'm wrong. It's human nature.

And yes my fingers were sore. The new route name and sore fingers go hand in hand. LOL Seriously though I had no idea we left a stick with tape on it behind. I'm usualy picking up other people's drinking boxes in Welsford.

peace all