New Routes

[*Chris*]

Kristy - I wish more local regular climbers would use this forum. If I've contributed to the reasons they don't, than I apologize (not to you personally, but to everyone)

Shawn - I consider it water under the bridge. I re-read your second post and interpreted it far more personal in tone than that of your first post, Steve's, Lucas's, Jon's, or PJ's. It was the questioning about the 'real reasons'? That implies the reasons I gave above were not genuine. Since it's clear that I misinterpreted your writing than an apology is in order.

[granite_grrl]

Man I think you guys are blowing this out of proportion. 99% of the American population probably doesn't know what New-Brunswick is aside from a City in new-Jersey. As for the Québécois, well they are too busy going to Parlee beach to stop in Welsford. And it's way too far of a drive for Upper-Canadians. So who's left? Nova-Scotians and PE islanders. Ohh damn they already know about the 'Secret crags'' of New-Brunswick. Guess the protectionism attidude didn't work against them...better do something about that guys!, maybe block off the Confederation bridge and flood the Sackville marshes!

A prime example of how Mountain Project won't affect Welsford is Clifton Maine. The are a bunch of routes of Clifton Maine on MP, yet I've been there twice and every time the crags we're filled to 0,01% capacity. The owner Don Nelligan practicly adopted us since he rarely sees climbers there!

Also, this May when we were at the ultra packed Kamouraska, I think every member of our group talked to Quebeckers about Welsford. (We we're a huge group) and I even made a beta post on Welsford in one of Québec climbing forum Yet, the rest of the Summer I didn't see anyone coming up from Québec randomly to get on Snakepeel and Rockstar.

And say what you want, but I've been to CL a lot this year and a bunch of times it was awesome outside yet there were 3, 4 cars max parked at the farm. If anything, CL is underused and that is why we need to clean routes, for lack of traffic on them.

My 0,02$ on the question. Again, I love the fact that MP makes a consensus grade, not just a sandbag grade or a soft grade.

Good post Dom.

Reading this last page made me laugh a little. People aren't going to flock to NB just because it gets put on MP. The people who are interested in coming and checking out NB will find this board, ask you guys for beta where you'll give it willingly.

If you're that worried about NB info being on a site like MP just make sure you spell out the access issues of the place and provide a link to this website so it's easier to find and chat with the locals before they come out.

[STeveA]

Man I think you guys are blowing this out of proportion. 99% of the American population probably doesn't know what New-Brunswick is aside from a City in new-Jersey. As for the Québécois, well they are too busy going to Parlee beach to stop in Welsford. And it's way too far of a drive for Upper-Canadians. So who's left? Nova-Scotians and PE islanders. Ohh damn they already know about the 'Secret crags'' of New-Brunswick. Guess the protectionism attidude didn't work against them...better do something about that guys!, maybe block off the Confederation bridge and flood the Sackville marshes!

A prime example of how Mountain Project won't affect Welsford is Clifton Maine. The are a bunch of routes of Clifton Maine on MP, yet I've been there twice and every time the crags we're filled to 0,01% capacity. The owner Don Nelligan practicly adopted us since he rarely sees climbers there!

Clifton is a good example. Today it is back to being a quiet area, but a few years ago, in a land far far away, there was an article about Clifton. Hundreds of climbers descended on the area for quite a few years. Access issues arose because of the non-locals climbing in the area then going back home. Keep in mind that Acadia Nation Park is the most visited park in the US, and we are only 3 hours away.

We may not be in jeopardy of having hordes of climbers invading the area, but what benefit do we have in advertising our 'secret' area for others. I enjoy showing people around, but there is no need to advertise it anymore than we already do.


This posting is endorsed by me, Steve Adamson, and in no way is intended as an attack on other posters. Any implied slights or poorly worded comments that are misinterpreted, are solely the responsibility of the reader. This posting paid for by 'no one'.

[Adam]

I don't see a problem with posting it on MP. To think that it's going to cause a huge, constant, destructive influx of traffic is merely paranoia IMHO. MP is a great site that provides the structure for recording ascents/routes, and for recording information about people's thoughts on grades/approaches/various details. Yup, this site does the job of recording new routes and it doesn't necessarily need to be supplanted.

I think people ARE overreacting here (Shawn you included). I would ask, as an analogy, why do you bother buying a new truck when the old one does the job? Why? Because it has newer features and is going to give you more utility. Same thing with MP. It is designed for the job, while this site is designed for general discussions, not recording ascents.

In the end, i don't care whether we switch over or not, but i think the reasons put forth as to why not are full of paranoia and ludditism. It's the frickin internet... it's here for us to use in the most convenient, effective, functional way possible.

[Shawn B]

You ask the base commander and get his permission and confirmation it will not affect access then I could give a flowers whether you post on mp, summit post, alpinist, climbing, r&i, rc.com, etc, etc. And contrary to Adam's belief that i am delusional and paranoid, i do not think that welsford will be invaded by a massive influx of foreign climbers. What i don't want to have happen is to have our access affected. We do not own the land and it is not public land. I'd rather find out before if CFB Gagetown has an issue with it rather than after the fact. I call that proactive...not paranoid.

And to steal your analagy Adam...do you test drive a used vehicle, check it out and ensure the title is clear? I do. Rather find out before buying than after.

This is my opinion. I prefer you (Adam) would rather respect it (regardless if you agree with it) and not call me (and others with the same opinion)

full of paranoia and ludditism

[Stacey]

Keep in mind that Acadia Nation Park is the most visited park in the US, and we are only 3 hours away.

Acadia is indeed popular - but as the 10th most visited...not quite the first....

Top 10 Most Visited National Parks
Rank Park Name Visitation
1 Great Smoky Mountains NP 9,289,215
2 Grand Canyon NP 4,279,439
3 Yosemite NP 3,242,644
4 Yellowstone NP 2,870,295
5 Olympic NP 2,749,197
6 Rocky Mountain NP 2,743,676
7 Zion NP 2,567,350
8 Cuyahoga Valley NP 2,468,816
9 Grand Teton NP 2,406,476
10 Acadia NP 2,083,588


http://www.nationalparkstraveler.com/20 ... onal-parks

[Nihoa]

wow. we were just talking on saturday @ sunnyside about some of the classic epically retarded forum threads (who remembers bbq squirrel?) and this is well on its way to joining that alum.

[STeveA]

Keep in mind that Acadia Nation Park is the most visited park in the US, and we are only 3 hours away.

Acadia is indeed popular - but as the 10th most visited...not quite the first....

Top 10 Most Visited National Parks
Rank Park Name Visitation
1 Great Smoky Mountains NP 9,289,215
2 Grand Canyon NP 4,279,439
3 Yosemite NP 3,242,644
4 Yellowstone NP 2,870,295
5 Olympic NP 2,749,197
6 Rocky Mountain NP 2,743,676
7 Zion NP 2,567,350
8 Cuyahoga Valley NP 2,468,816
9 Grand Teton NP 2,406,476
10 Acadia NP 2,083,588


http://www.nationalparkstraveler.com/20 ... onal-parks

Ask.com ranked it second. I guess I was still wrong. 4 million people is nothing to worry about.

Great Smoky Mountains NP 4 9,836,306
Acadia NP 16 3,929,054

[Adam]

You ask the base commander...

Shawn, please calm down... i said you were overreacting and your tone does seem to support that. Wasn't meant as a provocation, just an observation. The paranoia i was referring to wasn't necessarily yours... other people in this thread are worried about an influx of climbers. Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean no one is out to get you

I don't know what asking the base commander has to do with anything. Information about the cliffs in welsford is already available on THIS site and others, so it being on yet another site really doesn't change the situation IMHO. The sign is up in the field... even if people ignore access info online, they're going to see that when they arrive. if they ignore that as well, well people already do this so again, doesn't change much IMHO.

Obviously, NONE of us want to lose our access, but to suggest that posting info about the crag on MP.com is going to lead to that is just an overreaction/paranoia. i'm just calling it as i see it.

To continue the analogy, yes, you *should* test drive etc a used vehicle... and that's what several of us have done over the past year or two with MP.com... we've seen it's usefulness and feel it is an appropriate vehicle for just this sort of thing.

[Adam]

4 million people is nothing to worry about.

if it were 4 million climbers i might be worried. i've been to bar harbour... i've seen the people who visit there. most of them have trouble climbing out of their SUVs to go shopping in the ice cream stores.

i'm not worried.

[granite_grrl]

Keep in mind that Acadia Nation Park is the most visited park in the US, and we are only 3 hours away.

Acadia is indeed popular - but as the 10th most visited...not quite the first....

Top 10 Most Visited National Parks
Rank Park Name Visitation
1 Great Smoky Mountains NP 9,289,215
2 Grand Canyon NP 4,279,439
3 Yosemite NP 3,242,644
4 Yellowstone NP 2,870,295
5 Olympic NP 2,749,197
6 Rocky Mountain NP 2,743,676
7 Zion NP 2,567,350
8 Cuyahoga Valley NP 2,468,816
9 Grand Teton NP 2,406,476
10 Acadia NP 2,083,588


http://www.nationalparkstraveler.com/20 ... onal-parks

I'm actually surprised it made the top 10 considering all the other amazing parks in the running.

Chock it up to the huge population base in New England I guess.

[cory]

This posting is endorsed by me, Steve Adamson, and in no way is intended as an attack on other posters. Any implied slights or poorly worded comments that are misinterpreted, are solely the responsibility of the reader. This posting paid for by 'no one'.

I nominate this disclaimer as the most sane thing ever posted on this forum. Congratulations, Steve! I love it.

[jeremy]

please dont put it on MP.....

jeremy

[*Chris*]

Anyone else want to beat the dead horse?

How about rockclimbing.com? According to their database there's been 150 NB routes listed there since 2003. http://www.rockclimbing.com/routes/North_America/Canada/New_Brunswick/.

I guess that explains why Cochrane lane is such a shithole these days.

[Andrew]

Could someone please add this to the official new routes log.

Enjoy.

SNAKES & ARROWS 5.6 PG 60'/N/T
FA: A. Martin 19 Aug 2010
FFA: A. Martin, T. Anderson 09 Sept 2010
Found on Sunnyside Wall 15' right of Black Dwarf. Start on a right facing narrow ramp. From the ledge, follow the obvious small crack system, topping out at the tree anchor. Gear can be thin and far between.

[Stacey]

Could someone please add this to the official new routes log.

Enjoy.

SNAKES & ARROWS 5.6 PG 60'/N/T
FA: A. Martin 19 Aug 2010
FFA: A. Martin, T. Anderson 09 Sept 2010
Found on Sunnyside Wall 15' right of Black Dwarf. Start on a right facing narrow ramp. From the ledge, follow the obvious small crack system, topping out at the tree anchor. Gear can be thin and far between.

5.6 - - ??? I think it's quite awkward for 5.6... my vote would be 5.7 for the onsight my two pennies

[Andrew]

Anyone else climb this? Maybe 5.7 is a better grade. I orig. graded is 5.7, but thought it was a little easier.

Could someone please add this to the official new routes log.

Enjoy.

SNAKES & ARROWS 5.6 PG 60'/N/T
FA: A. Martin 19 Aug 2010
FFA: A. Martin, T. Anderson 09 Sept 2010
Found on Sunnyside Wall 15' right of Black Dwarf. Start on a right facing narrow ramp. From the ledge, follow the obvious small crack system, topping out at the tree anchor. Gear can be thin and far between.

5.6 - - ??? I think it's quite awkward for 5.6... my vote would be 5.7 for the onsight my two pennies

[Dom]

5.6 - - ??? I think it's quite awkward for 5.6... my vote would be 5.7 for the onsight my two pennies

Hmm I did it a couple weeks ago. I do remember it being a tad harder than 5.6 but found it easier than the other 5.7's at the crag.
If this route was bolted, it would be the easiest sport route at Sunnyside and would see a lot of traffic. In its current state it's a runout ''trad'' climb and will see very little traffic, if any in the future. If find it's a shame because it's a nice route. My 0.02$.

[theriault]

Dom hits a good point... we have a lack of easy sport routes in the area, and new leaders would benefit from this route being bolted... 0.2$

[Dom]

5.6 - - ??? I think it's quite awkward for 5.6... my vote would be 5.7 for the onsight my two pennies

Hmm I did it a couple weeks ago. I do remember it being a tad harder than 5.6 but found it easier than the other 5.7's at the crag.
If this route was bolted, it would be the easiest sport route at Sunnyside and would see a lot of traffic. In its current state it's a runout ''trad'' climb and will see very little traffic, if any in the future. If find it's a shame because it's a nice route. My 0.02$.

I re-read what I just wrote and I may seem like a dick for having said that. Basically I'm just saying how I would've developed the route. Don't take it as gospel. If you felt that the route was better by leaving it free of hardware than so be it. You saw the line, you cleaned it, You decide. Thanks for developing it.

[PeterA]

5.6 - - ??? I think it's quite awkward for 5.6... my vote would be 5.7 for the onsight my two pennies

Hmm I did it a couple weeks ago. I do remember it being a tad harder than 5.6 but found it easier than the other 5.7's at the crag.
If this route was bolted, it would be the easiest sport route at Sunnyside and would see a lot of traffic. In its current state it's a runout ''trad'' climb and will see very little traffic, if any in the future. If find it's a shame because it's a nice route. My 0.02$.

On the flip side, it wouldn't be anything of note if it was bolted. Having it trad means it's memorable. I've always looked at that line when I was up there, looks cool. I'll definitely get on it next time I'm up there.
-PJ

[Adam]

Having it trad means it's memorable.

can't quite agree with this logic. then again i haven't climbed it. i think the movement itself makes it memorable more than a PG rating or it being trad.

[PeterA]

Having it trad means it's memorable.

can't quite agree with this logic. then again i haven't climbed it. i think the movement itself makes it memorable more than a PG rating or it being trad.

But think about topping out a route after working out the pro, screwing your head straight and getting scared. Then, once you've topped out, the relief and sense of accomplishment that washes over you follows. Now think if you did that same route but with bolts every 5 feet. It would still be fun, but would you feel the same accomplishment? food for thought This might be a discussion for another thread though, although this one has already been wildly derailed a few pages back

-PJ

[Dom]

Having it trad means it's memorable.

can't quite agree with this logic. then again i haven't climbed it. i think the movement itself makes it memorable more than a PG rating or it being trad.

But think about topping out a route after working out the pro, screwing your head straight and getting scared. Then, once you've topped out, the relief and sense of accomplishment that washes over you follows. Now think if you did that same route but with bolts every 5 feet. It would still be fun, but would you feel the same accomplishment? food for thought This might be a discussion for another thread though, although this one has already been wildly derailed a few pages back

-PJ

PJ If this was in Cochrane Lane, I would completely agree with you but this is Sunnyside. I've now done must of the trad routes there and this is the only one that is not G rated. Just seems out of character that's all. I highly doubt that when climbers go to SS, they are looking for what you just described.

[Greg]

5.6 - - ??? I think it's quite awkward for 5.6... my vote would be 5.7 for the onsight my two pennies

Hmm I did it a couple weeks ago. I do remember it being a tad harder than 5.6 but found it easier than the other 5.7's at the crag.
If this route was bolted, it would be the easiest sport route at Sunnyside and would see a lot of traffic. In its current state it's a runout ''trad'' climb and will see very little traffic, if any in the future. If find it's a shame because it's a nice route. My 0.02$.

I also think this is a really good line. Interesting climbing, good movement and a fun topout. I don't think it is run out at all. I would even go as far as to say that the gear is G. You have to look a bit harder but the gear is there. I would grade it 5.6 if it weren't for the awkward footwork at the 20 foot level. So yeah 5.7 might be the way to go especially for the onsight. As for bolting it - I think that would be wasting bolts, time and a trad route. There are established trad lines there now so adding more just makes sense to me. Sure it would get more traffic if it were bolted but I don't think that is a good reason to cancel out a nice natural line and stick bolts on it.

Good job putting this route up Andrew.

[PeterA]

PJ If this was in Cochrane Lane, I would completely agree with you but this is Sunnyside. I've now done must of the trad routes there and this is the only one that is not G rated. Just seems out of character that's all. I highly doubt that when climbers go to SS, they are looking for what you just described.

I usually bring my rack to SS. Agreed that it's out of character but that doesn't mean that trad is any less satisfying there.

-PJ

[Andrew]

Okay, so let's call it 5.7. That was my first thought on it, anyway.

As far as changing from PG to G... I felt run out, so thought PG would be best.

- REPOST with update -

Could someone please add this to the official new routes log.

Enjoy.


SNAKES & ARROWS 5.7 PG 60'/N/T
FA: A. Martin 19 Aug 2010
FFA: A. Martin, T. Anderson 09 Sept 2010
Found on Sunnyside Wall 15' right of Black Dwarf. Start on a right facing narrow ramp. From the ledge, follow the obvious small crack system, topping out at the tree anchor. Gear can be thin and far between.

5.6 - - ??? I think it's quite awkward for 5.6... my vote would be 5.7 for the onsight my two pennies

Hmm I did it a couple weeks ago. I do remember it being a tad harder than 5.6 but found it easier than the other 5.7's at the crag.
If this route was bolted, it would be the easiest sport route at Sunnyside and would see a lot of traffic. In its current state it's a runout ''trad'' climb and will see very little traffic, if any in the future. If find it's a shame because it's a nice route. My 0.02$.

[Dom]

Could someone please add this to the official new routes log.

Enjoy.


SNAKES & ARROWS 5.7 PG 60'/N/T
FA: A. Martin 19 Aug 2010
FFA: A. Martin, T. Anderson 09 Sept 2010
Found on Sunnyside Wall 15' right of Black Dwarf. Start on a right facing narrow ramp. From the ledge, follow the obvious small crack system, topping out at the tree anchor. Gear can be thin and far between.

Done!

[Andrew]

Climbed Snakes & Arrows again for the first time this season. It definitely a 5.7. Wicked fun route.

Could someone please add this to the official new routes log.

Enjoy.


SNAKES & ARROWS 5.7 PG 60'/N/T
FA: A. Martin 19 Aug 2010
FFA: A. Martin, T. Anderson 09 Sept 2010
Found on Sunnyside Wall 15' right of Black Dwarf. Start on a right facing narrow ramp. From the ledge, follow the obvious small crack system, topping out at the tree anchor. Gear can be thin and far between.

Done!

[Fred]

Current count for new routes in New Brunswick since guidebook.

Kingston 30
Cedar Point 15
Welsford 40
Sunnyside 23
Greenlaw 6
Hampton Marsh 5
Gondola Point 2
Bald Hill 41
Loch Lomond 11
Mt Douglas 3

TOTAL = 176

And I know that there are probably over a dozen more that have not yet been recorded.