I want to pull a few lead bolts in Rockwood

[Rob L]

I want to pull a few bolts from 1-2 routes on the small cliff in Rockwood Park ('Info Lodge').

Rationale - This past weekend we had close to a hundred kids go top-rope climbing on this cliff. Easter Weekend, we had over a hundred. This summer 40-50 kids will scramble up these climbs every week as part of our summer camp. The lure of the shiny metal if too much to handle and kids grab the bolts on the face, despite being warned prior not to, and stick their fingers in them as 'hand holds'. I think we are smart enough to realize the risk management issue with this. I am not sure how many folks go to Rockwood to 'lead' routes, but in the last couple of months I haven't seen anyone on the routes.

Debate - Hundreds of happy kids learning to rock climb in a safe environment or ... a couple of sport routes rarely climbed on a short little cliff?

I am not sure who placed the bolts, otherwise I would ask them. Anyone have an issue with me pulling them out? I'll reimburse the person who placed them (quiet Dom )

I have placed a photo of what I am talking about if you are unsure.

Thoughts??

[Rich]

An alternative could be to temporarily remove the hangers

r

[theriault]

An alternative could be to temporarily remove the hangers

never climbed there and probably never will, but as a climber I think this is a good alternative!

[Dom]

This is what I found on the history of bolting in Rockwood by searching the old threads.

There are a number of cliffs in the park that have been "developed" over the years. I think all of the bolts were placed by me at the request of the park. You should check with Kevin Watson before placing bolts in Rockwood Park. He is the director of the recreation in the park and is very agreeable to climbing, but he should be consulted first. I think you will find that he would be happy to have more routes available unless there is some conflicting reason.

source: http://climbeasterncanada.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4536&p=25011&hilit=rockwood#p25011


I may be wrong but I don't think Rockwood is a destination for 'leading'. My 0.02$. If someone wants to lead in SJ, check out Cedar point.

[Stacey]

I'll play the devil's advocate....

We have taken the girls there and enjoyed the climbing. Yes the climbs are short...but IMO it's a good little climbing spot.
Cedar point is nice, but you can't compare the two. Rockwood is roadside with relatively easy/moderate short climbs. Cedar Point is a rap in/climb out climbing area.

I think we would be setting a bad precedent if we encourage a company to remove bolts & or hangers, regardless of the reasoning.

Stacey

[PeterA]

I don't think de-developing is a good idea, even if the cliff isn't great.

-PJ

[austinconrad]

I realise from the other posts that I'm going against the grain but as far as I'm concerned I don't see a problem with removing the bolts. I think more kids are going to benefit from removing the bolts than a small to non-existant set of climbers who may lead here. Can anyone tell me that they have led here or even know someone who has? Will the loss of this area as a sport crag be greater then the benefit these kids get from top-roping it? If it's a big issue however I see removing the hangers as a decent alternative. Another alternative would be temporarily altering them so that the kids can't use them to put their fingers in (example tape them up). Degloving injuries are horrific and putting your fingers in bolts is a great way to get one...ouch :S

[Shawn B]

Just to confirm, I'm assuming you are talking about the lead bolts and not the anchor bolts. I don't think the anchor bolts should be removed. I don't see any issue in removing the lead bolts. As you mentioned Rob you have hundreds of kids in your program (some of which I believe are underpriviledged and attend through sponsorship) which otherwise would have no opportunity to experience climbing. That to me seems more important than a few rarely used lead bolts. If you feel they are a safety issue (and thus a liability issue) then remove them is my .02. It is nice of you Rob to ask the climbing community but IMO the bottom line who has the say is the landowner. Not sure how you arrange to run your programs out of the park but I'm sure the park manager would respect your concerns. Nice to see you running this program btw. I saw a "non textbook" TR setup by one of the staff last year. Now to just get the horses to stay off the single track bike/hiking trails.

[cory]

Once, I did enter the park with the plan of climbing all the routes. Upon close inspection there was a total lack of interest in the lead climbs or the TR's, so I left and never returned. Personally I couldn't care less what happens. BUT, to borrow a term from PJ, de-developing is a bad idea in general.

climb650's idea of duct tape seems a quick, simple, cheap, safe, non-controversial solution.

[*Chris*]

I don't believe decommissioning a few lines at Rockwood will set any type of president. This is a 25' roadway cut that is sandwiched between a duckpond and an interpretive center. It's not a crag... it's a municipal park. If hundreds of kids are using it than that trumps a few one-time visits of climbers bent on leading every few years. The community is better served by introducing kids and their parents to climbing than it ever will be by those bolts in question.

Rob... you are clearly loosing more sleep about these bolts than any of us. Do what you see fit. A few solutions have been presented but personally... I'd pull em.

[Joe]

Take the hangers off and replace them with holds. Treat the whole cliff as an outdoor climbing gym. It's a man-made roadcut so develop it as you (or the landowner) wish. As an introduction to the sport, it would likely serve the climbing community better to have this little cliff totally developed for beginners than to have it provide a few insignificant lead climbs. So Rob, get out the drill and chisel!

[STeveA]

I placed the bolts for the park. If you want to remove them you should check with them to see if they want them removed. The little cliff is used a lot by climbers, and many of them lead the routes. This is done mostly in the evenings, so anyone around during the day would not see the activity.

[Greg]

I think it is great that kids are getting exposed to climbing and it makes sense to remove objective hazards if possible but I don’t think the bolts should be chopped or the hangers removed. Perhaps a compromise can be reached. I think that with a little bit of ingenuity a temporary cover of some sort could go over the hangers whenever the routes are being climbed by the kids. I have climbed at Rockwood Park and while it is not going to win the crag of the year award it is better than nothing and for some folks that may be all they have. The rock there really isn’t all that different than Hampton, Gondola Point or Kingston. Not everyone has a car to drive to a crag or the luxury of extra fuel if they do have one. For people living in Saint John it may represent a convenient place to lead climb.

[Gabriel824]

Removing the hanger will still leave the bolt sticking out. So the only way to cover it is to put a manufactured hold .. or maybe you could not cut it and use a Harmonic Balancer Puller instead. To use a Harmonic Balancer Puller; remove the hanger and place the puller on the bolt and use a drill to tork the puller which will leave a perfect whole to put back a new bolt. If you dont want to just cover the bolt and you dont want to damage the rock, me personaly, I would go with the Puller. Just giving ideas

[Dom]

I like Joe's idea of replacing the hangers with climbing holds for the climbing session. When you are done, replace the hangers.

Pretty simple and it's a win win.

(FTR this is probably the only time I'll ever advocate putting artificial holds on an outdoor wall, but like Chris said I don't really see this roadcut as a crag)

[theriault]

use a Harmonic Balancer Puller

If I see someone using this at a crag, I'm gonna point and laugh!

[theriault]

Show the kids this pictures.... this should convince them not to touch the bolts.....they should understand!!! So we can keep the bolts! everyone's happy!
Scroll down and read....
http://jpahoda.outdoorelements.fi/

[Dom]

Show the kids this pictures.... this should convince them not to touch the bolts.....they should understand!!! So we can keep the bolts! everyone's happy!
Scroll down and read....
http://jpahoda.outdoorelements.fi/

Marty that picture is way too graphic to be posted on this forum, especially without warning.

For those of you that want to see it, it's on the website Marty posted. *Warning* It's quite graphic

[RedStripe]

I worked at Rockwood at Daytripping for 3 years as "the climbing guy'. Taking both kids at camps and adults from coporate outing to those cliffs everytime the previous owner (Hurley) had customers for climbing.

I found that if I kept the kids in the crack pockets to the left of the bolts many were too small to reach the bolts. Also, I made it clear to them before climbing never to touch them (and often making a joke the they'll lose fingers, while holding up my hand with my index folded in. It was funny, and usuall got laughs when revealed that all my fingers were intact).

The big poiint for the bolts for me was, for the kids (and adults) who took a big interest in climbing, the bolts were an opportunity to tell them about other times of climbing. Many many times I got questions about what the bolts were, and I explained to them all about top-roping, leading, trad and bouldering. The difference in safety and the accolades that can be reached while attempting each discipline.

I say keep the bolts. They're fun little warmups for the beginning of climbing seasons and they act as a great teaching tool for interested climbers and fellow climbers interested in learning to lead.

(I DO endorse the duct tape idea if you're that worried about the kid's fingers)

[theriault]

Marty that picture is way too graphic to be posted on this forum.

My intent was not to offend anyone but to educate.... my bad lol but i still think that showing it to kids (the ones that don't listen) would work lol

[STeveA]

I worked at Rockwood at Daytripping for 3 years as "the climbing guy'. Taking both kids at camps and adults from coporate outing to those cliffs everytime the previous owner (Hurley) had customers for climbing.

I found that if I kept the kids in the crack pockets to the left of the bolts many were too small to reach the bolts. Also, I made it clear to them before climbing never to touch them (and often making a joke the they'll lose fingers, while holding up my hand with my index folded in. It was funny, and usuall got laughs when revealed that all my fingers were intact).

The big poiint for the bolts for me was, for the kids (and adults) who took a big interest in climbing, the bolts were an opportunity to tell them about other times of climbing. Many many times I got questions about what the bolts were, and I explained to them all about top-roping, leading, trad and bouldering. The difference in safety and the accolades that can be reached while attempting each discipline.

I say keep the bolts. They're fun little warmups for the beginning of climbing seasons and they act as a great teaching tool for interested climbers and fellow climbers interested in learning to lead.

(I DO endorse the duct tape idea if you're that worried about the kid's fingers)

I agree. Better to educate the climbers (even kids) than bring down routes to their level.

[Rob L]

Some good ideas guys thank you.

The city (landowner) is leaving it up to me, but obviously is nervous of liability issues so they will support me if I remove the bolts.

I am just talking about the bolts used as protection, not the top-anchors. Which have been recently replaced.

Pros/Cons

If I just take the hangers off - still a bolt hanging out, a bolt that's threads will most likely get trashed making the bolt useless anyway

Leaving them - The summer camp kids I am sure I can encourage kids to avoid (I think I'll do so without the photo, but thanks) but when the city wants us to open it to the general public things get a bit hectic (Easter Weekend, this past weekends Soap Box Derby, Canada Day). The hanger is like a freakin' magnet.

Tape - I'll try this next time. I suspect the kids will still go for the taped hanger as it will be a new 'magnet'.

Climbing Hold - I debated this one. I am gunning for this one for the 'Open to the General Public' days.

Most kids who use it, are underprivileged so I think it is uber important that we just get them climbing.

So for now, I plan on leaving them but will cover with tape or replace with a hold for the event.

How about I electrify them??? Finger still intact, just a wee little jolt to drive home the message 'Don't grab the Bolt'!!

[STeveA]

Some good ideas guys thank you.
How about I electrify them??? Finger still intact, just a wee little jolt to drive home the message 'Don't grab the Bolt'!!

Wire them with LEDs. Turn on a red light when they can't use them, and green when they can.

[aaronhart]

id say remove the bolts. its not worth a little kids fingers being ripped off. it just isnt. that area is for beginners and not leaders. kids learning to climb is the goal here safely. i personally love climbing there alot of fun fav climb is climbers left up a steep face great movements. thanks for the care and teaching of the youth aswell very noble.

[Andrew]

My 2 cents worth -

Child safety is important - YES.

I vote to NOT remove the bolts & hangers.

The suggestion of removing the hanger temporarily and installing a plastic hold is a brilliant idea.

If the kids are so young that they can't obey a simple warning not to touch the bolt hangers because they may damage their bodies, then I feel it is likely okay for them to have a few plastic holds in addition to the numerous natural rock features the routes offer.

Older kids should be intelligent enough to listen to reason and should want to challenge themselves by using regular rock holds and not plastics or a bolt hanger.

If the bolts and hangers are removed, it will detract from the cliff. I spent a good amount of time climbing TR and Lead at the rockwood park cliffs, so much that I felt it important enough to put together a basic 'guide book' for people to follow.

I particularly enjoyed cranking up the 5.10a just right of the middle crack. I think it's called "Clean face". It's very fun and a good chance to get an introductory to leading a technical grade without the height factor.

[Joe]

I heard Rob is building one of these in Rockwood!

[Andrew]

So... what ended up being done about these bolts at rockwood?